"A" String Setup Issues

[William Hoffman]

I'd be really interested to have the benefit of insights into why the A string's sound is apparently more impacted by soundpost position and by the tension balance across all strings.

Does this have to do with the relative position of the A string to soundpost and to bass bar -- it's in between -- as opposed to the E and G strings, which are supported more directly?

I'm not a luthier, but it's clear to me that when my soundpost is moved, the A string sound changes most. Also, when the the E and G string tension is high, the A string suffers. I even had a buzzing A string until recently when I swapped out the higher tension Spiro Mittel G for a somewhat lower tension Belcanto.

It would be useful and I think interesting to hear anyone's comments on this...

[drurb]

I wonder if this is the case in general or whether this is specific to your bass. That is, across basses, is the A most affected by sound-post position?

[Cody Sisk]

This is another thread seeking a broad generalization that can be applied to all basses. Remember we're dealing with organic materials. Different basses react differently to changing setups. This is the bulk of a luthier's job, to get to know the instruments they work on. One application won't apply to everything coming through the shop. Good luthiers know this to be true.

I'm psychic, watch this..

Everyone will proceed to shed light on their own experiences; some might argue some specific points. At the end of the thread, there will be at least half a dozen stories that will contradict one another and a broad generalization will not come out of the discussion.

Or the thread will be hijacked and the subject matter will change to a completely different non-related topic.

So, anyone tried the new budweiser wheat beer?

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Is there some relationship to the resonant frequency of the bass body, BO? I believe the majority (51%+) of basses will have a BO closer to A than E or D.
In my case, it is somewhere between A and Ab and woofy.
Just a thought of maybe part of a thought.

[Square Bear]

I always had a theory that the A string tends to be problematic because of its overtones. they're sandwiched between the overtones of the G and E string (particularly the G string against the G# on open E) and the sympathetic vibrations are thus at odds with each other. just a theory though. Also, each bass is different. I've played on instruments where the G is affected more than the A.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

This is another thread seeking a broad generalization that can be applied to all basses. Remember we're dealing with organic materials. Different basses react differently to changing setups. This is the bulk of a luthier's job, to get to know the instruments they work on. One application won't apply to everything coming through the shop. Good luthiers know this to be true.

I'm psychic, watch this..

Everyone will proceed to shed light on their own experiences; some might argue some specific points. At the end of the thread, there will be at least half a dozen stories that will contradict one another and a broad generalization will not come out of the discussion.

Or the thread will be hijacked and the subject matter will change to a completely different non-related topic.

So, anyone tried the new budweiser wheat beer?

I figured a generalization could not be made but I figured I'd defer to the expertise of luthiers. So far, your psychic powers have proven to be impressive.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by clink

Is there some relationship to the resonant frequency of the bass body, BO? I believe the majority (51%+) of basses will have a BO closer to A than E or D.
In my case, it is somewhere between A and Ab and woofy.
Just a thought of maybe part of a thought.

I would agree, if you were to come close to a generalization, this is as good as it gets. Soundpost adjustments can help alleviate a prominent wolf tone and if you're lucky, eliminate it.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I have almost killed the wolf by pulling the spirocores and going back to Obligatos. The Mittel E stayed.
For whatever reason, they don't sound much different pizz but bow much better.

Don't yet have the courage to attend another string meeting.

Hi, my name is Greg and I have a string addiction. In the last few months I have used Mittels, Animas, Mittels again, Weichs, Obligatos.
No, I haven't been practicing enough.
No, I can't be faithful to one string.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

Or the thread will be hijacked and the subject matter will change to a completely different non-related topic.

Good call, Cody.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

This is another thread seeking a broad generalization that can be applied to all basses. Remember we're dealing with organic materials. Different basses react differently to changing setups. This is the bulk of a luthier's job, to get to know the instruments they work on. One application won't apply to everything coming through the shop. Good luthiers know this to be true.

I'm psychic, watch this..

Everyone will proceed to shed light on their own experiences; some might argue some specific points. At the end of the thread, there will be at least half a dozen stories that will contradict one another and a broad generalization will not come out of the discussion.

Or the thread will be hijacked and the subject matter will change to a completely different non-related topic.

So, anyone tried the new budweiser wheat beer?

Hi Cody

the question was a sincere one based on actual experience. i thought it might be of general interest because my bass did react as described.

but it's not just about my bass. there are a number of comments in Chuck Traeger's first book (DB Setup & Repair for Optimum Sound) about the sound post position and length affecting the A string in particular. maybe you might want to check that out. for example, in chapter 9 ("making & positioning a soundpost") on page 35, CT writes: "too long and tight a post will choke the sound, especially noticeable on the open A string." and again on page 37: "when a post is too long and tight in a bass the volume of the A string will noticeably diminished in relation to the other strings."

my question was: why is the A string is impacted more than others? why not the D string?

i thought maybe there might be others with insights or experiences with the same or similar issue. Uncle Toad's comment on the thread about the "Heaviest E String" last week also reflected these kinds of issues on his bass relating to string tension. i can confirm that aspect on my bass as well: the only change i made was to remove a higher tension G string and swap in a lower tension one, and bingo the A string sounded louder and a buzzing i had had for over a year suddenly disappeared.

so, i disagree with you about this thread seeking an unwarranted generalization. maybe it is even a topic about which one can legitimately ... quel horreur generalize. i see your "psychic" answer more as blocking a question than providing a constructive answer. that's just not a helpful response. but at this point, apparently no one else knows what i've was asking about, so i'll end it here.

oh... congrats, you did succeed in hijacking the thread.

btw, how is that new beer?

Bill

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by William Hoffman

Hi Cody

so, i disagree with you about this thread seeking an unwarranted generalization (i do think some generalizations are legitimate), maybe there is some merit to the question asked. maybe it is even a topic about which one can rightfully generalize. i see your "psychic" answer more as blocking a question than providing a constructive answer. sorry but it's just not helpful, even if Paul liked it.
you did succeed in hijacking the thread, however. congrats
Bill

It's hard to quote you, Bill, since you choose not to use CAPS in most of your posts.

Anyway....... FWIW.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by clink

Is there some relationship to the resonant frequency of the bass body, BO? I believe the majority (51%+) of basses will have a BO closer to A than E or D.
In my case, it is somewhere between A and Ab and woofy.
Just a thought of maybe part of a thought.

William, Clink made light of this earlier and I agree with him. The natural resonance of any properly carved bass is somewhere near A. When the natural resonance of the body starts conflicting with the resonance of the string, you get a wolf tone. Wolf tones are extremely sensitive to the position and tightness of the soundpost. This is as close to a generalization as you can get. If you're still having issues with the A string even while experimenting with different strings/tensions, you might need to look into correcting a wolf tone using a method other than repositioning the soundpost.

Of course, this is another topic.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by William Hoffman

btw, how is that new beer?
Bill

Haven't tried it, wanted to see if anyone else had. I'm not a Budweiser fan most of the time. Besides wheat beers are usually hit or miss..

[arnoldschnitzer]

I have not personally noticed the phenomenon the OP describes above. However, the A string is usually the most powerful on a bass, living so close to the body's natural resonance. Because of that, changes in adjustment may be heard as affecting the A more than the other strings. I think there is also a tendency in human hearing for frequencies lower than the low A (55hz) to roll off; so the E may be under-represented when adjusting.

[William Hoffman]

okay, thanks AES and Dallas for the two helpful responses. the natural resonance of shall we say most basses being somewhere around A (ah-ah, another generalization?), well, then this really does make sense.

so if the sound post is too tight, either because it's too long OR too close to the f hole OR because the overall string tension is such that there's too much pressure on the top, then result can be that the A string sounds diminished or at least resounds less. i'm guessing this is because the top is not as free to vibrate as it should.

Paul, you just get up too early. can't even say @#%+ without you catching it!

[drurb]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I have not personally noticed the phenomenon the OP describes above. However, the A string is usually the most powerful on a bass, living so close to the body's natural resonance. Because of that, changes in adjustment may be heard as affecting the A more than the other strings. I think there is also a tendency in human hearing for frequencies lower than the low A (55hz) to roll off; so the E may be under-represented when adjusting.

You're quite correct about the roll-off at the low frequencies. It turns out, however, that for those low frequencies, small changes in the amount of power produce larger changes in loudness than is the case for the higher frequencies where we are more sensitive. That is, once there's enough power to hear them, the loudness changes faster as you alter the power. Notice how the equal-loudness contours are compressed in the low end.



Okay, back to the topic...

[Paul Warburton]

Who the hell knows for sure.
I do know that when I audition a bass I take a Spiro Red A string and put it on before I start the true lusting period. It seems, to me, to give an idea of the bass' possibilities at least in terms of pizz. I do an ascending pizz gliss from the low Bb to hear sustainig power and tonal blossom. If I don't hear something special from the bass I usually move on.

[Square Bear]

budweiser wheat beer sound like literally the shittiest thing i can imagine.

[Cody Sisk]

Originally Posted by Square Bear

budweiser wheat beer sound like literally the shittiest thing i can imagine.

I'm inclined to agree but my curiousity is getting the best of me. I just hope this doesn't take away from the microbrewery charm that wheat beers typically have..

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Square Bear

budweiser wheat beer sound like literally the shittiest thing i can imagine.

I think I had one a few weeks ago. I say THINK because I drink so many kinds of beer I don't remember for sure.
IF I had one it wasn't bad.