Tailgut Replacement

bassist1962 · #1 02-10-2008, 06:00 AM

I have already searched the forums, and other sources for this answer, and I am just totally confused.

I need to change my tailgut from the hanger wire that is there currently, to either the nylon, or aircraft cable, but am cofused as to which would work with my tailpiece.

It has holes drilled through with a recess, no pocket in back. I read that certain tailguts are not recomended for through the front holes, and I would like it to be adjustable. What do I use?

I can post pics later if needed.

1st Bass · #2 02-10-2008, 09:46 AM

Is this an original Kay tailpiece? or something similar? I just ran into that on a bass, and the owner wanted the new tailcord (Wittner) so I recommended either modifying the existing tailpiece (not so difficult, but time consuming), or just replacing it (much simpler, and reversible). A new tailpiece (ebony) is about $35 from IVC...pearwood is less, composite is more.

Bob Branstetter · #3 02-10-2008, 10:45 AM

If you use 3/32" aircraft cable, you can thread the cable through the two holes and place the clamp in the area between the nut and the endpin socket. There are special bass cable clamps available that are adjustable, but keep in mind that you have to take the tension off of the cable to adjust it and soundposts have been known to fall when that happens (unless you keep pressure on the top). However, the non-adjustable Nicopress type cable clamps are considerably smaller and less noticeable.

Jake deVilliers · #4 02-10-2008, 12:32 PM

1962, you can thread either one of those choices through the holes without damage. Like Bob said, you'll need to do your length adjustments on the bottom of the bass, near the endpin.

bassist1962 · #5 02-10-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

Is this an original Kay tailpiece? or something similar? I just ran into that on a bass, and the owner wanted the new tailcord (Wittner) so I recommended either modifying the existing tailpiece (not so difficult, but time consuming), or just replacing it (much simpler, and reversible). A new tailpiece (ebony) is about $35 from IVC...pearwood is less, composite is more.

No, this is a German shop instrument. It has been in my family since before I was born, and I am now getting ready to get the seams repaired and set it up.

bassist1962 · #6 02-10-2008, 12:35 PM

Bob, and Jake, Am I correct in assuming that if I buy a tailgut from Bob G., Upton, or Lemur, that instalation instructions are included?

bassist1962 · #7 02-11-2008, 04:28 PM

I know I will get varying opines here, but which of these are the easiest to install, and would be the best for what I am looking for? I am leaning toward the ferrule type. Advantages/disadvantages?

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=A1294

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...p?number=A1290

http://www.uptonbass.com/Clef-HiTec-...Bass-Tail-Gut/

Bob Branstetter · #8 02-11-2008, 05:16 PM

You mentioned in an earlier post that your were "getting ready to get the seams repaired and set it up." If you are taking your bass to a luthier for repairs and setup, why not just have your luthier install one of his tailguts or cable? Then you will know it is installed properly and the parts will probably cost you no more than for you to buy the parts retail with postage.

bassist1962 · #9 02-11-2008, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

You mentioned in an earlier post that your were "getting ready to get the seams repaired and set it up." If you are taking your bass to a luthier for repairs and setup, why not just have your luthier install one of his tailguts or cable? Then you will know it is installed properly and the parts will probably cost you no more than for you to buy the parts retail with postage.

This very thing was supposed to happen with this refund check. However, I am getting ready to buy my first house, and I need to see how much money is left after inspection, closing, etc.
I do realize that in the long run, It will probably be better for me to have it professionally done, but I figure the setup is done (at least when I was in school it was) the first week of orchestra, and I need to take the time to relearn how to do at least some of this stuff myself.

tucson_zac · #10 02-12-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Bob, and Jake, Am I correct in assuming that if I buy a tailgut from Bob G., Upton, or Lemur, that instalation instructions are included?

If you buy the Upton tailgut, it comes with a diagram on how to tie the knot, that is all the instruction included. The rest is pretty self explanitory (feed through tailpiece, behind endpin). Figuring out the afterlength you want, that is a different story...still playing with mine.

-z.

KSB - Ken Smith · #11 02-12-2008, 05:18 PM

You can buy 2ft or so of 1/8" aircraft cable at Lowes and a 1/8" cable clamp. Use the proper nut driver to tighten and also double the cable over in the clamp to ensure a tight fix. I also slide on some shrink tube up the cable ends before clipping. After clipping I put some epoxy on the ends to secure any loose ends. Then I heat the shrink tube over the ends and make it nice and neat. The barrel clamps with the 2 set screws is even better if you can find them. The U-clamp works just as good once you get the hang of it.

james condino · #12 02-12-2008, 08:03 PM

Can anyone give me working numbers for the breaking strength of either of the two steel aircraft cables? My impression is that the setscrews or aluminum crimp nut are the weakest points; has anyone got results for mechanical stress testing of those?

As far as the Upton cable, I've not seen one in person, but I have a bit of a hunch. Is it just a strong commercial grade nylon core with a specific weave and an external sheath? If you go to your local climbing shop or outdoor store, you can find about three dozen different varieties, thicknesses, colors, and working strengths. They almost always have the working numbers on display. They also come in very fine, tough Kevlar weaves that pack amazing strengths for about 50 cents a foot. A double fisherman's knot will hold to about 85%of the working strength of the material and looks nice and clean.

Two decades of working as an expeditionary guide taught me that stuff works amazing, even in the small diameters.

j.

KSB - Ken Smith · #13 02-12-2008, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by james condino

Can anyone give me working numbers for the breaking strength of either of the two steel aircraft cables? My impression is that the setscrews or aluminum crimp nut are the weakest points; has anyone got results for mechanical stress testing of those?

As far as the Upton cable, I've not seen one in person, but I have a bit of a hunch. Is it just a strong commercial grade nylon core with a specific weave and an external sheath? If you go to your local climbing shop or outdoor store, you can find about three dozen different varieties, thicknesses, colors, and working strengths. They almost always have the working numbers on display. They also come in very fine, tough Kevlar weaves that pack amazing strengths for about 50 cents a foot. A double fisherman's knot will hold to about 85%of the working strength of the material and looks nice and clean.

Two decades of working as an expeditionary guide taught me that stuff works amazing, even in the small diameters.

j.

Strength is not a factor. Never heard of one breaking. If fastened correctly, it will not slip. The PLUS is that you can adjust the length easily and as needed for tuning the Tailpiece after lengths if you feel that matters. Also, some believe it also changes the sound some.

bassist1962 · #14 02-13-2008, 03:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tucson_zac

If you buy the Upton tailgut, it comes with a diagram on how to tie the knot, that is all the instruction included. The rest is pretty self explanitory (feed through tailpiece, behind endpin). Figuring out the afterlength you want, that is a different story...still playing with mine.

-z.

Someone else asked me why I would want an adjustable tailpeice. This is why.

By the way, what effect does the afterlength have on tone, playability, tension etc.?

Again, thanks for all the help.

KSB - Ken Smith · #15 02-13-2008, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Someone else asked me why I would want an adjustable tailpeice. This is why.

By the way, what effect does the afterlength have on tone, playability, tension etc.?

Again, thanks for all the help.

I think that the closer the TP is to the Bridge, the looser the string tension feels. Further away makes it feel tighter. Further is brighter as well and closer is deeper. The difference is maybe 2% but only my Dog can hear it. Since I walk him every day I can hear the 2% as well..

Actually, the standard tuning that I have learned is '2 octaves and a forth' above the pitch of the String. The G-string tuned to 'c', D/g, A/d and E/a. Closer makes the 'after length' pitch higher and further away makes it flatter.

Bob Branstetter · #16 02-13-2008, 10:37 AM

There is no universal agreement on tuning the after-length to a particular interval. Over the decades I've heard players tell me of at least a dozen different intervals, all of which were supposed to do wonders to their bass. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a logical explanation of why one particular interval should be any better than another on ALL basses. Tuning the after-length of the string to any particular interval is no guarantee that is is going to sound any better than any totally random interval. I've tried most of them at one time or another and I would be using it on all my customer's basses IF it worked on ALL basses.

I and many other luthiers use what is called the "1/6 rule" and I've found it works as well as (or better than) any of the many tuning intervals touted as Eureka. The 1/6 rule simply makes the length of the after-length equal to 1/6 of the string length (mensur). Using the 1/6th rule places the bridge on the node of the 7th harmonic (1/7 of the total string length) and eliminates it. There have been many discussions on the pros and cons of after-length tuning on this forum so there is no reason to rehash them here. Just do a search.

KSB - Ken Smith · #17 02-13-2008, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

There is no universal agreement on tuning the after-length to a particular interval. Over the decades I've heard players tell me of at least a dozen different intervals, all of which were supposed to do wonders to their bass. I'm still waiting for someone to give me a logical explanation of why one particular interval should be any better than another on ALL basses. Tuning the after-length of the string to any particular interval is no guarantee that is is going to sound any better than any totally random interval. I've tried most of them at one time or another and I would be using it on all my customer's basses IF it worked on ALL basses.

I and many other luthiers use what is called the "1/6 rule" and I've found it works as well as (or better than) any of the many tuning intervals touted as Eureka. The 1/6 rule simply makes the length of the after-length equal to 1/6 of the string length (mensur). Using the 1/6th rule places the bridge on the node of the 7th harmonic (1/7 of the total string length) and eliminates it. There have been many discussions on the pros and cons of after-length tuning on this forum so there is no reason to rehash them here. Just do a search.

The 1/6th measurement takes to to about that 2octaves and a 4th interval for the most part. That's what I have noticed.

Bob Branstetter · #18 02-13-2008, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

The 1/6th measurement takes to to about that 2octaves and a 4th interval for the most part. That's what I have noticed.

That is the problem with using pitch to set the after-length. If there were no friction on the string going over the bridge, the pitch of the after-length would be the same on all basses if the ratio was the same. However, there is a considerable amount of friction going over the bridge and the amount varies greatly between different basses. Depending on the amount of friction, the pitch of the after-length will be higher or lower for the same length. I currently have 4 basses in my house and none of them have the same pitch for the after-length in spite of the fact they are all set to 1/6 of the mensur. That is probably the reason why so many makers have been using the 1/6 rule for the last 2 centuries.

bassist1962 · #19 02-13-2008, 05:04 PM

So the 1/6 rule is that from the bridge to the tailpiece is 1/6 the length of the string from tailpiece to nut? The 106 cm scale is 5/6 the length of the sting? From that point the rest of the sting is approximatly 20 -21 cm?

Bob Branstetter · #20 02-13-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

So the 1/6 rule is that from the bridge to the tailpiece is 1/6 the length of the string from tailpiece to nut? The 106 cm scale is 5/6 the length of the sting? From that point the rest of the sting is approximatly 20 -21 cm?

No, the after-length is 1/6th of the distance from the nut to the bridge (mensur).

Sent from my iPod Touch