Tailpiece Length/ String afterlength

[1st Bass]

It has been brought to my attention that the tailpiece I chose for my first bass may be out of proportion to the size of the lower bout--too small, thus leaving too long an afterlength. It had never occurred to me that this was something to be concerned about, as virtually all of my experience has been with violins and violas, which do not vary all that much.

How important is it to have a long enough tailpiece to shorten the afterlength to a particular tuning (as some recommend), or a particular ratio to the vibrating string length (as others specify)?

I could probably order another tailpiece, or, for sure, I could make one of Ipé, as I have it handy...but if it is unneeded, I don't want to do either. I would have to have a tailpiece about five inches longer, to bring it up to the tuning position some recommend.

Any suggestions? guidance?

Thanks in advance,

Chet Bishop

[Jake deVilliers]

Just lengthen the tailgut Chet.

I don't know if you're using Clef-style line or stainless rope but either way its pretty quick & easy to change.
There's really no need to add another pound of wood to the vibration path.

You'd probably need to make your own anyway since your lower bout is so long, like Brock Radelet's basses.

http://www.radeletdoublebass.com/index.html

[1st Bass]

It's a stainless rope, coated with some sort of tough black plastic-- but I would have to buy a longer tailgut-- this one only had about an inch of thread on the ends.

Just wondering if it was worth the trouble....

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Just lengthen the tailgut Chet.

I agree. Moving the tailpiece up or down may give you subtle changes in tone and feel. I moved the tailpiece up in increments all the way to the point where the string wrappings were just below the bridge and the bass seemed to have a bit "looser" feel. I wouldn't say that the tailpiece position was critical though on my bass, one way or the other.

[Jake deVilliers]

Its worth the trouble.

Record it the way it is and then record it again with the afterlengths tuned to 2 octaves and a fourth.
(Not with your cell phone! )
Feel the vibration of the back now and again after you've tuned the afterlengths.

Then report your findings.

[1st Bass]

So, do they make longer tailpiece adjusters, or do I need to make a longer tailpiece? I guess I could make one of Ipé, long enough to get it into the ballpark, and then fool with adjusting the pitch as you suggest. It shouldn't be too tough.

[Jake deVilliers]

You can get a long stainless cable setup from Lemur or a long cord from Mike Pecanic for less than $20.00.

http://shop1.mailordercentral.com/le...?number=A1294F

http://www.mikepecanic.com/content.p...ailpiece_cords

Both of these options will allow for more 'tunability' than a nylon tailgut.

[1st Bass]

Thanks-- I'll see what I can do.

[toman]

The best set-up bass I've owned, and one of the best I've played, had a very heavy metal (aluminum?) tailpiece, with tuned "saddles". I believe the afterlengths were tuned to a fifth to the string pitch. I, assuming that a "better" quality ebony, un-tuned tailpiece would be an upgrade, swapped the metal on out for it. Not an improvement. My experience, although not extensive, indicates that a heavy tailpiece+tuned afterlength makes a big difference. Note that this is for a 100% orchestra bass, no jazz or pizz of any kind.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

How important is it to have a long enough tailpiece to shorten the afterlength to a particular tuning (as some recommend), or a particular ratio to the vibrating string length (as others specify)?

Chet

The length of the tailpiece and tailpiece wire/string determine the length of the strings below the bridge (which can vibrate and thus add sound -- or even a wolf tone), but the weight of the tailpiece is probably more important and has an effect on the sound of the bass. Weight is one set of issues, length of the strings below the bridge and of the tailpiece wire is another.
Both jazz and arco players want the tailpiece to vibrate. A vibrating tailpiece creates volume. A lighter tailpiece will vibrate more, producing a louder sound, particularly if both the strings between bridge and tailpiece and the tailpiece wire/cord are the right length. The heavier the tailpiece, the more the vibrations of the instrument are dampened. A lighter tailpiece will also create a slightly brighter sound, while the heavier tailpiece creates a richer, deeper, darker tone.

The lighter tailpiece increases volume but also brightness. The heavier tailpiece will dampen vibration (decrease volume) but gives a deeper tone. Jazzers want/need/like a slightly brighter punchier sound to cut through the mix, while orchestral/arco players prefer the "deeper darker richer" tones that the heavier tailpiece will produce but which bowing can bring out so well.

I have a Wittner Composite tailpiece one on one of my basses. It weighs about 5 oz., and replaced an ebony tailpiece of about 12.5 oz. After I put the Wittner on, the volume of the bass was increased very noticably. My sax and piano players heard me playing in another room and were surprized, coming over to where I was, to see I had no amp on and was just playing acoustically.

I also put a lighter tailpiece on my "gut" bass (actually, it has Animas on it now). It's a Mike Pecanic compensated tailpiece made of walnut. It is beautiful wood and I am very happy with the sound. About 6 oz., it replaced an ebony of 13 oz. I also lengthened the tailpiece cord and the whole setup vibrates very nicely. The increase in "voice" and volume of the instrument was immediate.

But you were asking about the tailpiece length. A longer tailpiece will shorten the strings below the bridge and can impact their ability to vibrate. Those vibrations can be good or bad, but are definitely tricky to tune. Some luthiers say its important to have the "proper length" (for your bass and taste) of string below the bridge so that they vibrate at the same frequency as the wood tone of the whole bass. If you know what that note is, then you can try to get there with at least one of the strings. It should increase volume and improve tone overall. It does on my Gruenert, which I discovered has a wood note of "G". Another bass might have a different note, less easy to work with...

The length of the tailpiece wire is also a factor. Chuck Traeger in his book "Setup and Repair of DB for Optimum Sound" says the wire should be no longer than 1.5 inches or so and the two wires should be no farther apart on the saddle than about 5/8 inch. I got a Velvet synthetic tailpiece string (not cheap) on the web for one bass and an inexpensive synthetic string from Jonas Lohse for about 7 bucks for the other bass. They are really about the same thing. I put one on my big Gruenert and in violation of Traeger's book the length is a good 2 inches. It sounds good, you can feel the tailpiece vibrating and I have the sense this string length adds some punch, which is what I like.

The advantages of using synthetic tailpiece string (over say, metal wire or cable) are: much more flexibility (= vibrations), plus you don't need any clamps or bolts, you just tie a good old square knot and it sets in after a day or two. It may need one adjustment to get it right. But these synthetic strings are as strong as or stronger than steel cables according to the information of the makers.

Cheers

Bill

[Heifetzbass]

It has been stated that the afterlength should be 1/6 the total vibrating string length. So, if your string length is 42", then the afterlength should be 7". This is a classical violin makers proportion. You may find that a little longer or shorter may work for that particular bass in respect to "feel". A heavier or lighter tail piece will affect the tone more. You would only have to make a new tail piece if you are unhappy with the proportions.

Bob B. may chime in here... Bob?

For the tailwire:
You can also use 3/32" stainless steel stranded cable that they sell at home centers. I believe I paid $1.37 for enough to do 3 tailpieces. Just be careful with the fasteners. I bought a swag tool to crimp the wire... it was $25.00, but there are other clamps, etc... I just thought mine would be an investment over time.

Ultimately, it will be up to the player to adjust the set up to their likes. I say make it as standard as possible and let them work it from there.

FWIW
Brian

[Matthew Tucker]

The synthetic braided rope tailgut is SO easy to tie and adjust it's worth every cent IMO. I don't want to muck around with swaging tools and wire cutters.

[Heifetzbass]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

The synthetic braided rope tailgut is SO easy to tie and adjust it's worth every cent IMO. I don't want to muck around with swaging tools and wire cutters.

I agree, it is pretty easy to deal with, but not necessarily readily available... depends if they need it done right away or I can order it.

Brian

[Jake deVilliers]

If you like the stainless cable there's no need to use the crimp-on connectors. I make my own aluminium sleeves with stainless set screws so as to facilitate the tuning process.

In looking them up yesterday, I see that Lemur sells a brass version separately to fit your 3/32" cable.

That said, I have some line on order and can hardly wait!

[1st Bass]

I went ahead and made a curly maple tailpiece, 17.25" long-- it is lighter than the 13.25" ebony tailpiece that had been on the bass, but may be just a tad too long, as, now I have two-octaves-and-a-fifth difference between the string and afterlength--and I am about as shortened up as I can go.

Anyway, I am not sure the sound is improved, but the afterlength looks more normal. I liked the looks of the ebony better, I think, though.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

I liked the looks of the ebony better, I think, though.

so ... black stain?

[Jake deVilliers]

Where are the pix?

[1st Bass]

I made another, 16" long-- I think it will work-- the finish isn't dry, yet, so I can't be sure.

If I get it done, and can tune the afterlength, AND like the looks, I'll post a photo.

I really don't like the light-colored wood painted black-- to me it looks cheap. So I used some turpentine with pigment, to add a very faint purple-brown hue to the bare wood, then added yellow linseed oil, which brought it back to a yellow-brown-- then more purple, and a darker brown glaze, finally a coat of varnish.

It should be dry tomorrow. I may add another coat of varnish, though.

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by bonaventura

I have a Wittner Composite tailpiece one on one of my basses. It weighs about 5 oz., and replaced an ebony tailpiece of about 12.5 oz. After I put the Wittner on, the volume of the bass was increased very noticably. My sax and piano players heard me playing in another room and were surprized, coming over to where I was, to see I had no amp on and was just playing acoustically.

I've got this foggy recollection that Arnold had been experimenting with the Wittner...

[1st Bass]

OK-- I followed Matthew's suggestion and started a photobucket account, so here is a photo of the new tailpiece.



The afterlength is tuned to exactly two octaves and a fourth above the string tuning. I can't really tell whether that made a difference in the sound, but what do I know...