tailpiece question for luthiers

bassdogEmer · #1 12-20-2007, 11:51 PM

hi - I have a quick question for Luthiers regarding tailpieces.
Long story short - the bass I got last month didn't work out and I sold it - I just bought a new bass
it's a 1920 Czeck Flatblack. Everything on it is original including the tailpiece. The string length is 42 inches. the tailpiece is about one inch shorter than most normal tailpieces. Is there a problem or benefit to this?
I love the way bass sounds but it is a little disconcerting for some reason and I was thinking about replacing it with a normal sized ebony one and just keeping the old tailpiece so that I have all the original parts. any luthiers that can chime in about this - reasons to and/or not to? I can post some pics later today if needed.

mpm · #2 12-21-2007, 09:38 AM

Pictures would be good...

bassdogEmer · #3 12-21-2007, 10:02 AM

here are some pics- i can post one more on the next post

bassdogEmer · #4 12-21-2007, 10:06 AM

here is another angle - also here is some general info about my new bass -
it's a 1920 Czeck Flatback - 3/4
varnish is original. Gears and neck are also orginal. 42 inch string length - Eb Neck. It has a new ebony fingerboard and the neck has been reset. also the tail piece wire and endpin aren't orginal.

salcott · #5 12-21-2007, 10:22 AM

If it aint broke...... Seriously, if it sounds good and plays well, why change anything?

bassdogEmer · #6 12-21-2007, 10:34 AM

my reasons for investigating this since ya asked
1st) because the string holes are large and fairly worn down and the piece of wood is showing some stress wear and tear - it's 90 years old afterall. I had a tail piece crack on the road and it's not fun. I like higher action and it does stress the tailpiece maybe a little more
2nd) I am just curious and wanted Luthiers to weigh in on their thoughts since they are the pros with the knowledge. I want to to change the aircraft cable anyhow and was a little suprised to see that on my other basses the tailpieces are longer.
3rd) because this is an easy thing to do to a bass and can be un-done just as easy if needed.

mpm · #7 12-21-2007, 02:23 PM

There aren't really any 'hard and fast' rules in this area. Many people subscribe to the idea that the 'afterlength' (the length of string between the bridge and the tailpiece) should be 1/6 the total string length. Many people don't. I've found that the "average" length of the tailpiece for a 3/4 size is around 13 1/2" and I have done a bit of research in this area.

bassdogEmer · #8 12-21-2007, 02:28 PM

Hey Mike
thanks for the insight. The tailpiece in question is exactly 12 inches in length. The bass is a healthy 3/4 size - def. not on the smaller side. Can you venture to guess if changing the tailpiece to a larger one will have any possible negative effects on he bass? I would also be interested in what kind of cable you might recommend
thanks again in advance for your comments
Andrew

billyfalconer · #9 12-25-2007, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

Hey Mike
thanks for the insight. The tailpiece in question is exactly 12 inches in length. The bass is a healthy 3/4 size - def. not on the smaller side. Can you venture to guess if changing the tailpiece to a larger one will have any possible negative effects on he bass? I would also be interested in what kind of cable you might recommend
thanks again in advance for your comments
Andrew

There are some people who believe that the string afterlength should be a proportion of its stop, but I don't remember what the formula was. Why not get an adjustable one, like one of Pecanic's, and experiment?

bassdogEmer · #10 12-25-2007, 10:05 AM

hi - I don't want an adjustable tailpiece - nothing against any of the makers here . I am interested using tail gut or another synthetic as another option instead of aircraft cable but I don't want any moving parts on that part of my instrument. I am very happy with the traditional tailpiece and also more moving parts potentially means more sounds I don't want or can't stop when recording. thank you to Mike though for his advice. Arnold or Ken or Jeff maybe one of you could chime in here and let me know what you think about the over length of tailpieces and whether it matters - do I need to replace it with the same size tailpiece or get an ebony one that is the normal length of 13inches
thank

KSB - Ken Smith · #11 12-25-2007, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

hi - I don't want an adjustable tailpiece - nothing against any of the makers here . I am interested using tail gut or another synthetic as another option instead of aircraft cable but I don't want any moving parts on that part of my instrument. I am very happy with the traditional tailpiece and also more moving parts potentially means more sounds I don't want or can't stop when recording. thank you to Mike though for his advice. Arnold or Ken or Jeff maybe one of you could chime in here and let me know what you think about the over length of tailpieces and whether it matters - do I need to replace it with the same size tailpiece or get an ebony one that is the normal length of 13inches
thank

I think that 13" is for an average 3/4 Bass but I have had Basses with 41.25 String length and a body length of over 45". Mike Pecanic made me a beautiful Cocobolo TP for that Bass which I think is a full 7/8ths. The after length was very long due to the size of the Top. Maybe about 9" to the G and 11" to the low B.

I have another MPM TP for my 4/4 English Gamba which is still in restoration. That Bass being as big as it is will not follow that 1/6th rule either unless I either get a bigger TP or lengthen the Tailwire. This Bass although bigger then the 5er has different bout dimensions and less distance to the Bridge area.

I don't worry as much about the numbers as I do the sound.

Now, about your fear of moving parts, unless you have some Museum grade Maggini Bass and you want it all traditional like, I don't get why you are so concerned with the Tailwire. The two most common Tailwires in the world are either the old hanger wire (still in use today) or the aircraft type stranded steel cable fastened with either a permanent 'crimp' type lock, a cable 'U'-nut or a barrel clamp with 2 fastening screws.

I would not trust Gut or Nylon on one of my Basses. I will only use the steel cable with an adjustable fastener. They don't come loose if put on correctly and they don't make noise. There are more things on your Bass that make noise for you to worry about. A screw on a tuner plate or a string end in the peg box vibrating. An open seam, or loose patch inside.

The last thing I worry about noise wise is my cable clamp. The last thing I worry about sound wise is my TP Cable.

After lengths may alter the sound on some Basses with more audible changes than others. I go for tone and feel when the Bass is first set up and rarely do more than tweak it past that.

Like I have said over and over again. If you need to fuss so much with these almost 'nothing details' to get your Bass to sound good to you, IF you can get it working, then it's time to upgrade to a better sounding Bass.

Know you Bass and what it can do. Set it up and then play it, period!

bassdogEmer · #12 12-25-2007, 11:28 AM

hi Ken I think you may have misunderstood me - or perhaps I should rephrase. I never said adjustable cable- I said adjustable tailpiece - I just want a standard tailpiece. I am not worried about the cable making noise- it would be moving parts on the tailpiece. there are some of those on the market now and I was only stating that I am not interested in one of those. I initially stuck this out there to get an answer to one question:
I just got a new bass- the tailpiece is one inch shorter then the standard i have seen. The length of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece produces a third instead of a fourth and I am curious about this. So can any other Luthiers please weigh in on this? thanks!

KSB - Ken Smith · #13 12-25-2007, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

hi Ken I think you may have misunderstood me - or perhaps I should rephrase. I never said adjustable cable- I said adjustable tailpiece - I just want a standard tailpiece. I am not worried about the cable making noise- it would be moving parts on the tailpiece. there are some of those on the market now and I was only stating that I am not interested in one of those. I initially stuck this out there to get an answer to one question:
I just got a new bass- the tailpiece is one inch shorter then the standard i have seen. The length of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece produces a third instead of a fourth and I am curious about this. So can any other Luthiers please weigh in on this? thanks!

Oh.. ok.. well then.. never mind..lol

An inch shorter TP can be compensated by a longer Tailwire if that's the case. The actual mass of the TP or material it's made from is another story. My take on changes is that unless you try several types, styles, materials, woods, lengths, etc. and record the results in some rememberable way, you can't judge what each one is doing to the sound or feel of the Bass. I use only wood for my TPs. Many of my Basses have their original pre-Ebony TP still on the Bass. "If it aint broke, don't fix it". I have several great Basses that have old and maybe original TP in some stained hardwood, maybe Maple in some cases. These include my Gilkes, Martini, Batchelder and Storioni. My Hart came with an old English style Ebony TP made for 4-strings so it can't be original as it was a 3-stringer. Both the Gilkes and Storioni have repairs to the non-ebony TPs converting them to 4-string.

The Bass is wood so a wood TP is fine with me.

Eric Hochberg · #14 12-25-2007, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

The length of the string between the bridge and the tailpiece produces a third instead of a fourth and I am curious about this.

We experimented with moving the tailpiece north on a 3/4 bass that had a tight feel. The original afterlength pitch was a fifth. I don't know what the final interval was. It seemed that the strings felt less tense (pizz) as the TP got closer to the bridge. The tone or volume of the bass didn't seem to change.

bassdogEmer · #15 12-25-2007, 12:32 PM

Hi eric,
thanks for that insight - I am gonna throw on a more standard length tailpiece to see what happens. that was an interesting post about the tension seemed to loosen up a bit. Like chicago, NYC has a lot of crazy weather extremes and really does play hell on the feel our basses. By the way I was playing at the Skokie Theater in Chicago not too long ago - what a great venue ey!! Really had a lot of fun and the sound was really nice in a hall that size acoustic bass.

Eric Hochberg · #16 12-25-2007, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassdogEmer

By the way I was playing at the Skokie Theater in Chicago not to long ago - what a great venue ey!! Really had a lot of fun and the sound was really nice in a hall that size acoustic bass.

I played there on 12/8, and yes it's a nice small hall. I hope they can keep it going!