Theory on string sustain and volume

[JtheJazzMan]

I have a bit of a complaint with my bass. Backstory:

My bass is a 5 string, but the fingerboard seems to be a standard size for 4 strings. About 96mm wide at the end.

In order to bow it, the action has to be quite low on all strings. Thats OK for me, except the E string is a little too low.

So hypothetically speaking, if you remove some more wood off the E side, does the added room for the string give you more distance to deflect the string when playing pizz, and also more room to vibrate? Hence affecting volume and sustain?

Or is the string break angle over the bridge the biggest factor?

[bassics1975]

It sounds as though your bass was converted to a five sting from a four without modifying the fingerboard based on what you describe (any pics?). I suppose planing the e-string side of the fingerboard will give you some clearance however, the modification may interfere with the a-string. There is no easy fix for these things. The best thing for you would be to take it to your luthier for a professional opinion.

[JtheJazzMan]

Its definitely made as a 5 string, though I get the feeling they simply put some 5 string machines on their 4 string design.

Below is an old pic, but the spacing of the fingerboard is still the same. Or you can kind-of see the action in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mLEglKS958

Im mainly interested in the concept at the moment, on giving the string more room to move.

[JtheJazzMan]

A thought just occurred to me, I inspected the bridge and the E-A string spacing is a little closer than the other strings.

So maybe off a luthier afterall for a bridge graft?

[bassics1975]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Its definitely made as a 5 string, though I get the feeling they simply put some 5 string machines on their 4 string design.

Below is an old pic, but the spacing of the fingerboard is still the same. Or you can kind-of see the action in this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mLEglKS958

Im mainly interested in the concept at the moment, on giving the string more room to move.

Attachment 193227

Have you looked at the nut? Perhaps there is too much scoop to the fingerboard. Any of these issues could result in frustrations in getting a good tone. Either of them are quite easy to address.

[Matthew Tucker]

That's some nice playing john, and the bass sounds good!

To answer your question, removing wood from the fingerboard on the E side will only allow the E string to vibrate a little more, and it may allow you to bow/pull harder, so yes in that case you will be able to give more energy to the string.

But I'm interested in your statement "In order to bow it, the action has to be quite low on all strings". Why?

What is you string height on both sides?

What happens if you wind up your adjusters a little? Does you E string work the way you want? What strings you go on there? spiros?

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

But I'm interested in your statement "In order to bow it, the action has to be quite low on all strings". Why?

Yeah I didnt phrase that too well. When the action is higher it means greater string deflection, particularly in thumb position, and the bow clearances are almost impossible bowing near the FB, plus in order to have low action middle strings, the outer high C and low E had to be very low. Thats perfect for the C but the E had to be too low for my tastes.

For the past few hours Ive been redoing the E string slot. I made another slot and widened the gap between the E & A strings about 3mm

The action is now 4mm under the C, and 7mm under the E. That was about 5mm before.

Guess sometimes I just need to think aloud.

Still, now that the E string is even closer to the edge of the FB it makes it easier to do a little shaving....

[Matthew Tucker]

I think you'll always struggle with that on a fiver, so in TP you can only really bow closer to the bridge.

I'd have problems playing with strings that low. Do you ever play unamped?

[JtheJazzMan]

I always practice without an amp, but not in performance situations.

At low amp volumes it can provide a little bass boost that sounds very natural.

[bigolbassguy]

The increased tension of the 5th string - both on the top of the bass and the neck - chokes vibration, resulting in less volume.

The height of the B string should be at least 9mm at the end of the FB.

The outer strings - B & G - look uncomfortable to play pizz.

[robobass]

First of all, that youtube clip is beautiful! From the photo and video it does seem like the E string is a bit low at the bridge. Perhaps you could recut the bridge top to give the E a bit more height in relation to the other strings. This would naturally reduce bow access to the A string, but a tiny bit of loss here might be well worth it.

As far as bow clearance at the bouts, the only thing you can really do is increase the overstand by having the neck brought out (or adding a fingerboard shim) and raising the bridge.

However, considering the wonderful stuff you're doing with the bass now, I'd be very hesitant to make such major mods. Just try to save up for a second bass which is more bow-friendly?

[JtheJazzMan]

Ive done a few mods in the past few days which drastically changed the sound in the end:

• Moved E string bridge slot outwards by 3mm which increased its height off the FB.
  
• Planed the FB on the E side so that the curvature is greater giving me a little more E string clearance.
  
• Took the marvin wire tailpiece off and put an ebony one back on.
  
• While doing the FB with the bridge off, the soundpost fell and I had to reset it.
  
• New strings - spiro weich E, solo A D & G, and a pirastro flat chromsteel high C.

The results were amazing. A big increase in bass and middle frequencies from all strings, and the strings all sounded mellow and made the bass sound woody. Even bowing the new spiros and flat chromsteel sounded fantastic after 10 minutes. What magic is this? Whatever it is I hope it lasts.

Pity I cant scientifically say which mod did what.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Pity I cant scientifically say which mod did what.

Its always the way ...

Now you'll have to record another version of that solo on youtube with the new setup to compare.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by robobass

First of all, that youtube clip is beautiful! From the photo and video it does seem like the E string is a bit low at the bridge. Perhaps you could recut the bridge top to give the E a bit more height in relation to the other strings. This would naturally reduce bow access to the A string, but a tiny bit of loss here might be well worth it.

Oh and I took this advice too, though instead of dropping all the other string down I made a bridge graft to move the E string up and out more.

The string spacing is visibly different on the E - A space, but its only noticeable with the fingers up in thumb position and I wouldnt bother with the E string up there.

Helped the tone a lot! The E string has so much more room to move.

[1st Bass]

I'd like to see a close-up of the bridge graft. I'm not sure I've ever seen such a thing, unless it went by a different name...

[Matthew Tucker]

Chet I think its just restoring the crown before re-slotting.



I do this to try to save an otherwise good bridge when the client is on a budget.

[1st Bass]

So it is just gluing bits of wood into accurately carved notches? I was imagining something much more involved.

Thanks, Matthew.

[Matthew Tucker]

well that's what I do. File the notches out cleanly with a square file, then glue in an insert "V" of material taken from old bridge crowns (I keep every one). Then you can re-notch to your heart's content.

[JtheJazzMan]

This is what I did.

[1st Bass]

Hadn't occurred to me before. Thanks, gentlemen. Don't know when I might use it, but it is good to know.