tone implications of a different scale length

groovygreg · #1 12-30-2010, 09:54 AM

Hi; just a general question for you luthiers out there, I tried to find if it has been discussed elsewhere but didn't find much.

I currently have a bass with a long (43 inch) scale length that needs some neck work (when the string tension is off, the neck wobbles a bit in it's joint.. scary...). My luthier, whom I trust, want to put a new neck on the bass with a shorter scale length (I think he's also not crazy about the overstand and/or angle of the current neck). He says any difference in the bass will be both minimal and positive in terms of playability, tone, etc.

My major concern is that a different scale length will drastically change the tone; the tone is why I love this instrument in the first place, and being a lefty, my option for trading in and such are at best limited. So I'm going to have to live with the new tone.

My (very) limited understanding of the physics of it is that a longer scale length will make for a higher string tension, which may be what I like about the tone (especially on the E string; I like my E string better than most others I've played). However, that might have more to do with the body, which has a smallish upper bout but a pretty huge lower bout (my baby's got back, to coin an early 90's phrase).

So my main question is (knowing there are a thousand variables, etc., etc.); what are the odds that I'll be sad when I get my bass back?

Thanks for any input

Eric Hochberg · #2 12-30-2010, 10:12 AM

You could try moving the bridge up to shorten the length and see how it sounds. And maybe fashion a temporary false nut. Not apples to apples but maybe worth a try. I've done this on my bass and noticed no change in tone.

If you put a new neck on the bass, a new, thick fingerboard could change the tone if your current board is thin.

arnoldschnitzer · #3 12-30-2010, 10:43 AM

If you only reduce the neck length, then all the notes are going to move down onto the body more. Will you be happy with that?

uprightben · #4 12-30-2010, 12:12 PM

This is a question where I feel that the electric bass can be helpfull. There are many makers that extend the scale length when adding a low b string to get more definition, the idea being that there will be more tension which will help the super low end not be so muddy. There are also short scale basses out there that have a distinctive tone, fat if you like it, muddy if you don't. You could go to a big box music store and check out the difference in string length on electrics yourself to get an idea of the differences.
If you luthier is going to change the overstand and neck angle, then that will affect the tension as well. Basically, if the changes mean the bridge will have to be higher, the tension will increase and visa versa, so the net change in tesion is really impossible to figure without getting into some serious math.
In the end, whatever you have done will have some effet on the tone, probably for the better, and you should always expect it to be bright and harsh for a little while after all of the strings have been taken off, it will take a few days for everything to settle back in.

iiipopes · #5 12-30-2010, 12:12 PM

The best way to see if you like a shorter scale length is to get a thin plastic shim and put it under the strings at the point your luthier wants to shorten the scale to and then tune everything down to pitch. Give it about a week or two, focusing on the tone and response, since the feel won't exactly be the same. The actual physical length difference of the neck probably won't be noticable, but if he shortens it, say, from 44 inches to 42 inches, it could make as much as 5 to 6 pounds tension difference per string, which would be roughly the equivalent of going from a medium to light tension set. Only you can determine if you can live with that, but the plastic shim or "false nut" is the best place to start. Have your luthier help you with a temporary so you can try it yourself before you commit.

Mike Arnopol · #6 12-30-2010, 09:41 PM

What Arnold said is really important. If you leave the bridge in the same place the notes will be in different places. You could wind up with a C sharp neck. I agree with the others who say to put a simple false nut to bring the scale down and see how it feels and how the notes line up. My experience is that a longer scale length with the same strings gives more tension----for me it can help the E string, but often times it makes the G string too tight and less open. It's a compromise between the openness of the G string to a well defined E string. Which is why on the electric bass side the Dingwall (sp?) basses use fanned frets which makes the G string much shorter than the E. On my fretless five string electric I opted for a 35" scale length. A small compromise on the openness of the G, but great definition on the B. Again, this varies bass to bass.

ChuckCorbisiero · #7 12-31-2010, 12:08 AM

Ken Smith had his Loveri Italian double bass originally at 43, then 42 and presently at 41.5 with a Eb neck. He says it sounds best in it's current configuration. A 1 inch shorter change at the nut will make and Eb neck bass in between a D neck and a Eb neck. With the neck off, trimming of the joint and reshaping the heel can keep the Eb or D neck in the same relative spot while shortening the scale. Possibly bringing the bridge forward no more than a 1/2 inch toward the nut and repositioning the sound post if necessary. Usually the goal is to get it to around 42 inches plus or minus a 1/2 inch. If you are starting with a D neck bass it could be tricky but not impossible to keep it a D neck with a string measure reduction. You do not want a Db neck period. This would be a disadvantage because of access to the upper register of the bass. It would also adversely effect the value of the bass. I think what you want is what is called a Modern D or Eb neck. I say Modern because there are 2 different concepts as to what actually is a D neck and Eb neck based on the position of the thumb on the neck relative to the 1st and 2nd fingers of the left or in your case the right hand. With regard to Electric basses, Carl Thompson talks extensively on his website about the effect of string scale on the quality of sound of a electric bass. He maintains that scale effects sonority more than the choice of tone wood. Quite an interesting read. Here is an extreme example of a 7/8 Tyrolean bass whose string measure has been shortened to 40.75 inches. Notice how far foward the bridge is toward the nut. This bass and it's dimensions are listed on the Kolstein website.

iiipopes · #8 12-31-2010, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Arnopol

It's a compromise between the openness of the G string to a well defined E string. Which is why on the electric bass side the Dingwall (sp?) basses use fanned frets which makes the G string much shorter than the E. On my fretless five string electric I opted for a 35" scale length. A small compromise on the openness of the G, but great definition on the B. Again, this varies bass to bass.

It also is a function of a player's hand ergonomics. The left hand can only spread so far for those octaves in half position. For the average full sized adult with average hands, it's usually not a problem until scale length gets over 42 inches, but for others it can be. Sheldon Dingwall fretted an electric bass neck for me that is slightly fanned, and it does indeed help define the E string, open the G string, and since I went with a conventional square nut and fanned everything down, offsetting the pickups and bridge as necessary, makes it much more comfortable to play coming up the neck as the elbow and wrist arc naturally instead of pronating under the instrument in the upper part of the fretboard. This is, of course, less of an issue with the ergonomics of DB, and I'm not sure it would be compatable with bowing, but Sheldon's instruments are definitely interesting. Another guy, Jerome Little, makes an EB with a helical neck which also has ergonomic benefits on the EB side. Now, if only someone would combine the helix with the fanned fretting....

groovygreg · #9 12-31-2010, 01:40 PM

Wow, thanks for all the responses, lots of great things to think about. I'll try and take them in the order you guys responded.

Eric - "moving the bridge up to shorten the length"

The only thing I'd worry about then is that the bridge would move in relation to the body and especially the soundpost, which would also effect the sound. I have to put in my winter soundpost soon, though, so that might be something to play with at that point.

"fashion a temporary false nut"

Intriguing, may look into it.

"a new, thick fingerboard could change the tone if your current board is thin"

True, both the fingerboard and the neck are on the thin side, especially for a neck as long as this one.

Arnold-

"If you only reduce the neck length, then all the notes are going to move down onto the body more."

My bass is a bit of an odd duck already in that department; it has an E neck and a 44 inch scale length, so I've got plenty of room to work with.

Ben-

"If you luthier is going to change the overstand and neck angle, then that will affect the tension as well. Basically, if the changes mean the bridge will have to be higher, the tension will increase and vise versa, so the net change in tension is really impossible to figure without getting into some serious math."

That's the part that I'm fuzziest on; the tension (whether from the scale, overstand, neck angle, what have you) vs.the scale in determining the overall tone. If the tension is the same but the scale is different, will the tone be still roughly the same? And the math, much too serious for my poor brain...

iiipopes-

That plastic shim does seem like a good starting point, not ideal, obviously, because the shim won't be a nice as a well cut nut, but to give me an idea of the tension/tone at that scale length. And pretty cheap/reversible. I wonder if a couple of zip ties could work; one behind and one in front at the new "nut"

Mike-

Like I mentioned to Arnold, E neck, 44 inch scale, so I'm not too worried about a C# neck. And those tone characteristics are precisely what I'm talking about, nice defined E string tone, but the G string can sound at times almost like it's going through a compressor. If I can keep the E string tone while opening up the G string bit, that'd be ideal.

Chuck- thanks for the idea of the Carl Thompson article, I'll check it out. And that's interesting, so getting my bass to a modern D or Eb neck and getting the scale length down to somewhere more reasonable could make the bass more valuable; not that it's so easy to resell a lefty upright even if you want to (BTW, anyone want to buy an old, converted-to- lefty Kay?). Plus I'm hoping a thicker neck and fingerboard will make it easier to play and keep the sound nice and beefy.

Anyway, thanks all for your input, it helps a lot. I think I'll try to fashion a temporary nut, even if it's just rough, and see how the tension feels/the bass sounds. I may mess around with the bridge and soundpost, also, though I think in the end I'm just gonna go ahead and get the work done. At least now I can have a more informed discussion with my luthier.

Eric Hochberg · #10 12-31-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groovygreg

Eric - "moving the bridge up to shorten the length"

The only thing I'd worry about then is that the bridge would move in relation to the body and especially the soundpost, which would also effect the sound. I have to put in my winter soundpost soon, though, so that might be something to play with at that point.

Right, you would move the soundpost in relation to the new bridge position. But with your E neck, you might end up with an F neck if you do this!

ChuckCorbisiero · #11 12-31-2010, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groovygreg

Chuck- thanks for the idea of the Carl Thompson article, I'll check it out. And that's interesting, so getting my bass to a modern D or Eb neck and getting the scale length down to somewhere more reasonable could make the bass more valuable; not that it's so easy to resell a lefty upright even if you want to (BTW, anyone want to buy an old, converted-to- lefty Kay?). Plus I'm hoping a thicker neck and fingerboard will make it easier to play and keep the sound nice and beefy.

Groovy. There are 2 schools of thought with regard to a string measure reduction. Whether Ken Smith's Loveri increased in value because he made it more playable remains to be seen. Purists might say that changing it reduces it's value because it has been modified. Is your double bass a rare collectable bass? If so, be careful what you change. If it is not then make it as playable as it can be. Just wanted to clarify. Too bad Ken can't chime in here.

groovygreg · #12 12-31-2010, 02:25 PM

Nah, the bass isn't rare or collectible, it's an early 20th century "factory" bass from Germany (Mittenwold, pre-WWII). It's only value is it's sound, which I dig and don't want to change too much, hence my Hamlet routine "to fix or not to fix; whether 'tis nobler, yada, yada". I'm not even sure if the neck is original to the instrument, it seems long in relation to the body, what with the E neck and all. Plus, by converting it to lefty, I've probably destroyed it for any purist anyway

uprightben · #13 01-01-2011, 07:26 AM

Greg-
"That's the part that I'm fuzziest on; the tension (whether from the scale, overstand, neck angle, what have you) vs.the scale in determining the overall tone. If the tension is the same but the scale is different, will the tone be still roughly the same? And the math, much too serious for my poor brain..."

While it is extreamely difficult to predict the net change in tension, I think it is safe to say the the change in tone will be a good one any time you fix a loose neck joint. All of the changes your luthier wants to make should make your bass more playable, and if you get it back and want more tension, you can always get thicker strings. Assuming your guy does good clean work and stands by it, I think you are looking at an overall improvement in your bass. If you do get the work done, it would be cool to post some before and after shots.

iiipopes · #14 01-01-2011, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by groovygreg

Nah, the bass isn't rare or collectible, it's an early 20th century "factory" bass from Germany (Mittenwold, pre-WWII). It's only value is it's sound, which I dig and don't want to change too much, hence my Hamlet routine "to fix or not to fix; whether 'tis nobler, yada, yada". I'm not even sure if the neck is original to the instrument, it seems long in relation to the body, what with the E neck and all. Plus, by converting it to lefty, I've probably destroyed it for any purist anyway

And, just make sure you aren't putting more $$ into the bass than you reasonably think it is worth. For example: I had a @1936 Gibson L-00 guitar that had a replacement back and other repairs, of course the label was long gone, so it had no provenance whatsoever beyond the original "Gibson" logo still intact on the peghead. At the time I got it, it was worth @$200. It started getting a fret buzz from some prior improper fret repairs, and it was going to cost $150 to fix it. To me that was not reasonable, so it sat. Then Gibson went and "reissued" the model at an outrageous price tag. Literally overnight, even with no provenance, the value went from $200 to $2000. I had a complete fret job done on it and sold it for $1800 to get a different instrument that fit what I do on guitar better. The whole point of this is that there is still a balancing act here. Getting something structurally stabilized is, of course, necessary to at least keep the integrity of the instrument as it is. Anything beyond that is a balancing act that only you can make the final determination after weighing all aspects, which have very well been discussed.

That said, if you love the tone and playing the instrument that much, one inch is probably not going to affect playability or tone significantly, and since your neck is presently closer to E than Eb, I am also of the opinion that getting a new neck per your luthier's recommendation will be a step up, along with the revised fingerboard thickness and possibly a slight back angle adjustment.

I'll go the next step: the bass will probably end up playing and sounding even better.

**Matthew Tucker** · #15 01-02-2011, 06:04 AM

What is the provenance of "providence"?

iiipopes · #16 01-02-2011, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

What is the provenance of "providence"?

Damn blood clots. Ever since I had my blood clots a few years ago, aphasia occasionally kicks my butt with talking and typing. I think the proper word, but something else comes out instead. I didn't catch it. Now edited. Thanks.

groovygreg · #17 01-27-2011, 11:52 PM

Hey, all. Sorry to be absent for so long, but I was away for a while. I'm getting the work done as we speak, so I'll be sure to report back once I get it back. I think with a thicker neck and better fingerboard (I sprung for a nicer board; my current one I think was "Indian ebony" and fairly thin at that) plus the things my luthier is doing regarding neck angle, overstand, etc., plus a new bridge, will all combine to make a nicer sounding instrument, and with a more manageable scale length as well.

Thanks again everyone for chiming in! If you're curious and don't hear from me within a month, feel free to bump the post & I'll get back to you.