The Traeger Bass Book Is Here

[Damon Rondeau]

I haven't read Bob's paper (although I should and I'd like to), and my Traeger is still on the way, but it seems to me that this resonance-matching situation is pretty common to many areas where science and technology overlap.

We can have all kinds of theoretical and empirical knowledge about the actuality of resonance matching and mis-matching. You can choose to believe or not -- personally I find the science to be fairly convincing based on what I've heard here (not the first time this topic has come up.)

That doesn't have anything to do with HOW MUCH impact resonance-matching has. My own feeling is that it is unlikely there is a huge amount to be gained there. If there was, then the recognition of the effect by luthiers -- based on their real-world knowledge and experience -- would be greater.

There's another "law" to deal with here: the law of diminishing returns. If we're after "optimum" sound -- anyone's vision of it -- then we should realize that not every aspect of the bass system contributes equally to that "optimum" outcome. Some things have a very great impact. Quality of stock. Quality of crafting. Quality of design. Some things have a smaller impact. Tailpiece. Tuners. What the player had for lunch.

Personally, I think that resonance-matching must be one of the things that has a lesser overall effect on outcomes. Otherwise we'd already know about it, only under a different name.

Ken: how much does it matter if Traeger screwed up a transaction of yours decades ago? I'm interested in the quality of the book he's written today -- there certainly was and is a need for such a book. If reviews of the book tell me Traeger's info is whack and not to be relied upon, then we've got a different story. Maybe he's a better author and teacher than he is a practitioner.

As for magic: anyone who works with wood knows there's plenty of it. This stick and that stick are the same species, same degree of seasoning, same yada yada. Yet one stick sounds different than another. Why? Little differences in a myriad of causal factors. So many differences in such a big old myriad that you might as well call it magic. Go ahead and measure them and theorize about 'em if you want! I'll certainly read the results with interests. I'm going to spend the time practising, though.

[Eric Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jello Boffbach

AO/BO is bubbermeiser!

***??

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

If I was a beginner or Amatuer with a Cheap Chinese Bass or Plywood Bass, I would probably not know enough to be upset but this was not the case at all.

You're probably right. What would somebody with a Cheap Chinese Bass know? I'm sure you know enough to be upset quite often.

You asked why nobody took up your comment. One reason may be that you offered no comment on the book. Only a dissatisfactory transaction from decades ago. There don't seem to be many others piling on with similar dissatisfaction. My mind remains open.

[Uncletoad]

"When you Play Bass Professionally and own Basses that cost as much as a Car, you would expect some Professionalism from a Repaiman. The same respect as when I trusted him with my Bass."

I agree absolutely. Sounds like he was on the wrong side of all that for sure.

That brings up several questions,

Is it possible that he may have learned from his errors and have developed enough insight to have a different opinion years later or does he remain misguided? Should we disregard the opinions put forth in his writings because of this?

I'm trying to decide if I should put his book in the trash and ignore it entirely or what portions of what he has written are accepted as generally agreed upon procedure vs. his own quackery? There is a ton of stuff there that seems like it might be genuine or valid however I and most of us that don't repair these things aren't savy enough to evaluate it well. Anyone who can take the time to continue to evaluate that is appreciated.

[Damon Rondeau]

Ooooh, another unhappy customer! Except I only know that TOADEY apparently doesn't like Traeger, either. Let's hear some detail boys: what exactly is wrong with this book? The book, not the man. Many of us have invested in the book and want to know what the beef is.

So?

[Uncletoad]

I don't think that's what I said. I never met the guy. I don't have an opinion about him. I'd like to think he has something of value to contribute to the progress of DB repair and restoration.



It appears to me based on Ken's anecdote that his approach with Ken in that instance was probably out of bounds. I too am looking for validation or dissention of the books details.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Perhaps it would be wise to seperate the man from the book. I'm personally pretty certain there's something to learn there regardless of one's feelings toward the author. Anyone want to loan me a copy?

[Jeff Bollbach]

Originally Posted by Eric Jackson

***??

I can figure out what *** means, you should be able to get "bubbermeiser" from context. Well, mebbe not. You're not from NY. Bubbermeiser would be a Yiddish term loosely translating to bull *&^%.
I've seen people who do otherwize hack work claiming they can transform an instrument by shaving some grams from the bottom of the fingerboard thereby matching resonances in a scientifically measurable way. Sorry, don't buy it. There's always a science crowd out there claiming they can match greatness by vibrating this or that and getting iron filings to create fancy patterns but invariably they are turning out lacklustre instruments.

[Mike Crumpton]

What's goin' down on Talkbass these days - the biggest discussion in bows and rosin is about a bow hardly anyone's seen let alone used and the biggest discussion here is about a book hardly anyone's read - especially an expert - apart from Bob and he's lurking as well as being an expounder of AO/BO matching I seem to remember.

Please come back Bob or are you highly amused by all this. Traeger might make enough to retire if everyone who has a view buys the book.

...and I would be pleased to point out that my bass is worth three times my car but I only paid £400 for GMs finest - at the moment my bow is worth more than the car!

[Silversorcerer]

Gee, you take a short break to go into the laboratory to conjer and oops!

I didn't mean to offend anyone. And I didn't expect what I wrote to be read as an impassioned defense of science. I was simply trying to make a point and was not attacking anyone's methodology. My sincerest apologies to anyone who feels that I was putting them down. On the contrary, I am genuinely interested in all ideas on the making of these instruments, not just Traeger's. Even the "magical" ones, accepting Damon's idea that at some points, there are so many variables in the materials involved that in some cases the results "may as well be magic".

No, I am not a bass luthier. Not yet anyway. I have over many years set up a number of acoustic and electric guitars and made some bridge/nut replacements and truss rod adjustments on those. They were usually salvage instruments that I was able to restore to usefulness for students, myself or friends. I have always understood these adjustments as simple physical problems involving not so much math and a good deal less magic.

It is interesting that my credentials are questioned more than the validity of the ideas that I presented. Admittedly, it is much easier to question a person's credentials than to test an acoustic principle on a web forum. I make no pretenses, my statements are not based on my experience as an instrument builder because I have none. My statements are based on my broader experience in other fields that usually carefully measured characteristics can improve performance. It could be applied to tire rubber, automobile engine tune-up, etc.

In fact, my own feeling is that many good luthiers probably get this relation very close to matching the same way an experienced engine mechanic can set the dwell angle on a distributer and the spark timing by ear and feel without the meters. My grandfather could do this on anything from a 2-stroke mower to a V-8 and deisels also and never saw a timing light.

At this point I think the thread is approaching Damon's Law of Diminishing Returns so I will hopefully hear from all of you "Gentlemen" in future threads. Back to the laboratory to conjer some more....

Arnold, if you want to borrow the book, I have ordered one and I will be glad to ship it up to you with return shipping when I have finished reading it.

[Damon Rondeau]

If excellence at performance were the only criterion qualifying teachers and textbook writers then this world would be short a whole lot of teachers and textbook writers.

It's the book that counts. It will be a source of info to bass people long after we're all gone and nobody cares about the individuals involved. It will stand (or not) on its merits as a practical source of hard-to-find information. TalkBass.com will have an influence over how that all unfolds, which is pretty cool.

I've heard lots of bad stories about Miles' bad acting, and heard lots of poor opinions of his musicianship. That doesn't stop Miles Davis from being timeless and his critics from being forgotten dust bunnies.

[Jeff Bollbach]

No one is offended. We sometimes play a little rough at TB. Maybe a little wistful overcompenstation now that Bob is gone.

[Eric Jackson]

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

...Bubbermeiser would be a Yiddish term loosely translating to bull *&^%...

Thank you for the clarification, and the addition to my vocabulary. That's about what I would have guessed, but as a geezer I'm often unsure of how our language has evolved, witness the difference between "This thing is the sh**!" and "This thing is the sh**s!".

As I've mused elsewhere, if I'm not mistaken luthiers have for centuries tap tuned various other parts of violin family instruments- top and back plates, bass bars, etc. Why not necks? I'm sure I'm not alone in having played a bass where vibrations in the neck can be felt more than in other basses.

[Ken McKay]

I have the book, I am about 1/2 of the way through and nobody can borrow my copy... buy your own. It will be my reference for a long while now.

I dislike repairing basses!!. Luckily I don't need to to make a living. I barely have time to construct a new instrument. Even though I bought the book the first day it was offered, I doubt I will ever perform any of the procedures written by Traeger, Brownell, or Merchant. I will however have a much better understanding of what is going on in the bass world. It will make me understand the professional repair luthier, working musician and bass makers that came before our time. This book is so rich in information that I think anyone who is interested in the bass will cherish it. Don't miss out.

Ken Smith I would highly recommend the book to you. There is a short, but important section dealing with restoration versus conservation that is right up your alley. You can pick up a copy for less than the price of a hubcap. There certainly is a good argument for leaving those "old Italians" alone so luthiers/players now and in the future can benefit from knowing just how they were constructed. I won't tell you what Traeger says...you'll have to buy the book.

[godoze]

So Ken, In other words, no one should attempt to repair their own basses ?

[Damon Rondeau]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I'm getting a headache reading some of these long heavly worded posts.

I guess you get what you put into it...

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I have 'Met in person or on the phone & Or' had repairs done Paul Biase, Andre Fantoni, Alfonse Vavra, Joe Cilicek(spelling), Peter Eibert, Sam Kolstein, Barrie Kolstein, Jeff Bolbach, Arnold Schnitzer, Fred Olivero, James Callman, Bill Merchant, Chuck Traeger, and a few others.. I have some experience with Basses to say the least and have done quite a few repairs myself. Traeger is the last of this group I would buy a book from.

Again with the experience. You have mentioned to us in the past your vast experience. None of us are forgetting about that, believe me. What about the books these other guys have written? The greats that you've worked with, how are their tomes coming? How about your book, Ken? We're all anxiously awaiting it.

The need for a book of this kind is obviously tremendous. Real bassists would definitely be interested in such a book. Maybe it gives collectors gas, but that's their problem.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

If you can not learn as an Apprentice in a decent shop or it is your main profession then for the low $ I hear the book is selling for, I don't see the harm. If any others on the list wrote a Book, I would buy it as a "collectors" item at least if not to read and study!..

You know, it's just like those Cheap Chinese Basses, right? Couldn't possibly be worth anything if the price is too low.

Your condescension just drips, Man. So you don't like Traeger and you think he tried to hustle you. You still haven't said a thing about the book. Only a bunch of undignified, anecdotal slagging.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Please, folks - let's keep things civil. I think it would be completely fair to take exception with a repair/construction method that was quoted in the book, and/or to disagree with a concept or concepts put forth in the book. But it seems pretty disingenuous to cast aspersions on a work under discussion unless one is familiar with the work in question.

If there are going to be negative comments posted about the book, let them be about the book. I say this for several reasons: one, because it's the honest thing to do; two, because it's easy to trash someone who isn't around; three, because even though it's easy to imagine that someone might not be around and that therefore it would be easy to trash them in effigy, it is also instructive to note that a simple Google search on "Traeger Bass Book" turns up this very discussion as the NUMBER ONE ENTRY. Try it and see if you don't believe me.

Point being, it's a small world, and we've all gotta live in it. Let's make it a civil one if not an entirely peaceful one, okay?

[T-Bal]

A few observations:

KSB, I just love it when you get riled up, because the percentage of Important Words that become Capitalized for Emphasis increases Exponentially!

You can either believe what you read, or not. If someone who may very well be more of an authority on the subject than yourself tells you that what you've read is a load of Bubbermeiser, you may let that influence your opinion, or not. The more arguments you hear pro or con, the better informed your opinion will be.

It is my opinion that this discussion of resonance matching and its merits or lack thereof, is best left for those with a lot of time and money on thier hands. (Note to self: If you think that it's a waste of time, then don't waste your time trying to tell people that it's a waste of time...) I tend to agree with the argument that even if you can objectively measure and match the two resonances, whether the result is "better" at all, or enough improvement to justify the cost, has to be purely subjective.

I imagine that Mr. Brainsplatter is not even slighlty amused by all these antics. Bob, thank you for all of your wisdom, even if aO-bO matching is a bunch of hooey. Of course, that's just my ill-informed opinion at this juncture.

[Paul Warburton]

I'm sure Bob is reading these posts right along with us....
I think Bob is probably glad he decided to go away.
I still love this Forum, but this isn't one of our best moments.

[nicklloyd]

Actually, I was thinking this thread was one of the better ones in quite a while...

Books don't write themselves. The subject of Traeger's work and workmanship is bound to come up when a discussing a book (regarding both topics) is published. Admittedly, sometimes it is difficult to be honest without coming across negative. Criticism should be tolerated, and with some manners.