true oil finish vs oil varnish - Page 2

Darren Molnar · #21 04-19-2008, 03:41 PM

Thanks Damon. I'm going to get some tried/true to play with.

BTW,I don't know if many know this, but the maker of tried/true varnishes also makes some very nice violin varnishes.He's here :

http://www.violinvarnish.com/

Does anyone have a picture of a bass they would like to share, with a true oil finish?

ctregan · #22 04-19-2008, 07:52 PM

http://www.utrechtart.com/msds/docs/JD.pdf
Tru Oil uses chemical driers (Japan driers) to speed up the drying time. These are dangerous to human beings.

I have used the Tried and True oil varnish, it was very, very slow to dry and difficult to build a significant film. Violin makers might be used to slow drying varnishes but the build up might be a problem.

**Damon Rondeau** · #23 04-19-2008, 08:14 PM

I had the same experience with the oil varnish -- very slow to cure. There was yet another Fine Woodworking article that touched on Tried & True, a review of oil finishes. The reviewers pretty much hated the T&T for that reason...

I've found that, on cherry furniture anyway, the T&T oil varnish built a perfectly satisfactory and durable finish. For instruments, I dunno...

Ken McKay · #24 04-20-2008, 06:08 AM

The owner of Tried and True varnish is also a maker of violin varnishes, His name is Joe Robson http://www.violinvarnish.com/ and he has done much research by trial and error and he knows his chemistry also. He will be the first to tell you that Tried and True varnishes, any of them, are too soft for violin varnish. Bass is a little different, I think, because the instrument can handle a different varnish than violin, viola and celli.

The sealer is perhaps more important to sound as well as looks in my opinion.

James, I would use a violin varnish like the oil varnish from International Violin. I think it is the brand Arnold suggested. They also make a spirit varnish and I have only used it to touch up.
I have mixed my own and it is really not that difficult. For a stunning varnish, consider fused amberl/linseed oil. Joe sells some I think. I like it for on a bass.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #25 04-20-2008, 10:58 AM

http://kcstrings.com/anton-krutz-varnish.html
Interesting info and brief mention of the fused amber/linseed oil. His finishes are certainly beautiful.

D McCartney · #26 04-20-2008, 05:03 PM

Has anyone used this? http://www.howardcore.com/Catalog/FP/oldwood.htm

Bob Branstetter · #27 04-20-2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clink

http://kcstrings.com/anton-krutz-varnish.html
Interesting info and brief mention of the fused amber/linseed oil. His finishes are certainly beautiful.

I've talked to Anton about varnishes over the years and he has told me that he has used Joe Robson's amber varnish on some of his violins. However, because of the cost factor, I doubt if he uses it on basses. I know that George Boran used (genuine) amber varnish on some of his basses, but George had a friend in the jewelry manufacturing business who sold him scraps of amber at a fairly low cost and then he cooked his own amber varnish. Economics usually precludes the use of genuine amber varnish on basses. In any case, an ultra-violet drying cabinet is a must with these (otherwise) slow drying oil varnishes.

Jake deVilliers · #28 04-20-2008, 07:07 PM

"Has anyone used this? http://www.howardcore.com/Catalog/FP/oldwood.htm"

The ground goes for $232.00 an 8oz cup, $3712.00 a US gallon, the varnish for $4435.20 a US gallon.

How much do you figure you'd need for a bass? $500 of the ground and $1100.00 worth of the varnish? More or less?

I sure hope its amazingly beautiful.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #29 04-20-2008, 08:06 PM

Bob,
You may be right. The finish on my bass looks like spirit, but I can't be sure. I'll ask him next time I see him.

Ken McKay · #30 04-20-2008, 08:24 PM

I got my Amber from George Borun years ago. I still have enough for at least one bass or 10 violins, lets see...

Bob Branstetter · #31 04-20-2008, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

I got my Amber from George Borun years ago. I still have enough for at least one bass or 10 violins, lets see...

Oh, you lucky guy. I forgot that George use to sell fused amber to makers. I wish that I had bought some years ago like you did. I don't think I could justify using it on a bass if I had to buy the raw amber or fused amber at today's prices. I guess I'll just have to be satisfied with my Fulton Terpene varnish and Propolis ground (if I ever get around to finishing the bass I started but haven't finished).

D McCartney · #32 04-21-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

"Has anyone used this? http://www.howardcore.com/Catalog/FP/oldwood.htm"

The ground goes for $232.00 an 8oz cup, $3712.00 a US gallon, the varnish for $4435.20 a US gallon.

How much do you figure you'd need for a bass? $500 of the ground and $1100.00 worth of the varnish? More or less?

I sure hope its amazingly beautiful.

Helps explain why high end basses cost so much.

Martin Sheridan · #33 04-27-2008, 03:09 PM

I first heard of Tru Oil around 1977 but I didn't think it could be any good because it was commercially made. I finally got around to trying it in the early 90s and although I revert to my own spirit varnish on occastion, I think Tru Oil can't be beat.
I only use four or five coats of it but I color glaze my finishes so that it's not necessary to use so many coats of varnish.

Tru Oil: dries fast(about two hours) and doesn't look like one of the commercial German violin varnishes; it looks better.

Doug D · #34 06-24-2008, 01:01 PM

I've used tru-oil on several mandolins...just like you'd use any other (true) varnish.

a good process would be: use whatever you like to get your color or ground coat. then use amber/orange shellac washcoat to seal the ground and begin to fill pores and build up a base. this will ad some warmth to the color and keep too much of the slow drying oil from saturating the softer tonewoods. then begin with TruOil.

T.Oil can be wiped on or sprayed. to wipe it, think of it as if you're wiping something down with oil and wiping off the excess. finish with long strokes going with the grain.

I usually wait overnight between coats.

T.O. is thinned with mineral spirits (for spraying). I suppose you could add something like TransTint liquid pigments if you wanted to color it.

over a very short time, T.O. will 'age' nicely. it will start to yellow just like vintage nitro, (esp. over white binding, etc) the more you layer it on.

Martin Sheridan · #35 06-25-2008, 10:44 AM

Tru oil can also be applied with a brush just like a regular vanish. I usually use my fingers, or a paper towel, but a brush comes in handy to make sure it gets into the space next to the edges and around the scroll.

I've used it for about 15 years and have never known it to yellow. In fact Tru-Oil made by Birchwood Casey guarantees that it won't. If you're seeing that affect perhaps it is from one of the other products you are using with it?

**Damon Rondeau** · #36 06-25-2008, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

First off, Tru-oil is not (unless it's been changed) an Oil-Varnish product. It is a Polymerized Oil which I believe is made by heating the Oil up. Correct me if I am wrong.

Not wrong at all. For those DIY'ers out there who don't know, though, those polymerized oils are indeed heated but they are heated in an oxygen-free process. So you can't just cook up some linseed or tung oil in a pot on the stove to polymerize it.

Martin Sheridan · #37 06-25-2008, 03:13 PM

Some years ago I spoke with the owner and inventer of Tru Oil. A long enough time has elasped that I may not remember exactly what he said, or I might be adding something someone else told me, but I thought he said they heated it to a high temperature and forced oxygen into it and added driers. He added that the technology didn't exist during the Stradivari era to produce a finish this way.

Spirt varnishes do tend to sink into the previous coat somewhat because the alcohol is used as the solvent for "melting" the resin. I would think that Oil Varnishes would act more like Tru-oil. Once one coat is dry the next coat will sit on top of the previous one. It will not partially disolve the previous coat.
Tru Oil is not a "true" varnish in that it doesn't have a resin. In Stradivari's day he couldn't have made an oil varnish without a resin. I've had very good results with it, but I think there is something to be said for using something you like and learning how to use it. I use a glazing method and I think the first coat or two of the Tru Oil has a tendecy to penetrate the color layer. I also like it because it doesn't look like a commercial oil varnish, it dries usually in a couple of hours, and I use not more than five coats on top of the color. I haven't found a varnish that doesn't have some draw backs, but I like the results I get with artist oil color glaze and Tru Oil

I made up three batches of spirit varnish recently. One with Siam seedlac which yields a nice golden brown color which negates using colors which might be fugitive and two using regular seedlac which is kind of reddish but needs the addition of color unless you want to try some kind of glazing. Seedlac can make a very beautiful varnish but it's hard to use.

To each his own.

Martin Sheridan · #38 06-25-2008, 03:18 PM

Ken,
What are the four kinds of oil varnishes you use?

**Damon Rondeau** · #39 06-25-2008, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Some years ago I spoke with the owner and inventer of Tru Oil. A long enough time has elasped that I may not remember exactly what he said, or I might be adding something someone else told me, but I thought he said they heated it to a high temperature and forced oxygen into it and added driers. He added that the technology didn't exist during the Stradivari era to produce a finish this way.

From Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing", widely-known, I guess, throughout the general woodworking community: "Any curing or semi-curing oil can be heated in an oxygen-free environment to around 500 degrees Fahrenheit to increase its gloss and hardness and reduce its curing time. Oil processed in this manner is called polymerized or heat-bodied oil. Polymerized oil is commonly used in ink and outdoor paint." (p. 58)

I've used polymerized tung oil on furniture. Nice, but pricey for bookshelves.