Tung Oil?

[David Potts]

Has anyone any comments about using tung oil to revarnish a bass? It seems to meet many of the criteria, such as drying quickly, almost a satin clear finish, creating a thin tough durable film only a few microns thick per coat.

DP

[Martin Sheridan]

I published a thread some time back called Varnish Matters, and as I recall someone sent in a post on using Tung Oil. You should be able to find it in 'search. There have also been some other posts on it's use.

Just to get you started, it is not generally considered to be a violin type finish and many products labeled Tung Oil don't even have any in it or maybe just a wiff.

I've used it as a sealer.

[Matthew Tucker]

You've been speaking to Harry! I experimented with it a bit some time ago after he spoke about using it. But I could not find pure tung oil. The tung oil products I found here were generally thin and very penetrating, and not what I wanted. Maybe Harry seals the wood first. An important detail. Did he say what tung oil product he uses?

[wdave]

Here's where you can get the real stuff.
http://www.realmilkpaint.com/oil.html
I've refinished my floors with it.
wdave

[Matthew Tucker]

thanks. on the website they say

"Our pure Tung Oil will not build a gloss finish or heavy finish, but will penetrate deeply into the wood to enhance character and water resistance."

that's good for floors or chopping boards. not sure its good for basses.

[B. Graham]

I refinished an Eberle plywood bass with artist oils and then TruOil.

I consulted with Mr. Sheridan about this, and it worked great. The TruOil is tough, easy to apply and work, and the finish is not overly glossy.

TruOil is made by Birchwood-Casey, and is largely used for finishing gun stocks.

[toman]

I'm not sure what TruOil is actually made up of other than linseed oil, which I believe is the main ingredient, but I'm fairly sure it isn't much tung oil. As a product though, it works well and is easy to use. I question using it often though just because of the penetration issue since that's one of it's main selling points.

As far as I've seen all of the usual products out there calling themselves tung oil are actually just commercial preparations that may contain tung oil to one degree or another but my guess is not as a truly significant component, but rather just to justify calling it "tung oil". I tend to think they're mostly linseed oil too, with various other chemicals added to make them slick and easy like a BigMac.

I know that pure tung oil can be obtained though, and as it's a drying oil that has been used for finishing just about everything known to man throughout time, I imagine it has often been and could very well be incorporated into some sort of varnish formula or process...

[Dr Funk]

Tung oil, stradivari gold oil... it's tung oil and a superior instrument finish that penetrates. My favorite bass builder uses it as his most prevalent finish. He told me himself to use tung oil for repairs on his oil finish instruments. I have and it is indistinguishable form the original. But I'm not name dropping... cause he's getting real ornery as time goes on. ;>)

[Ric5]

I use tung oil and mix in mineral spirits. The more mineral spirits you add the more permanant and glossy the finish is. It can be applied with a clean cotton cloth. To sand between coats use a scratchy pad. The beauty of the tung oil finish is it can be applied by a skilled amatuer. When finished try rubbing in johnson's paste wax. Another plus for oil finishing is you get more of a woody sound out of it. Also an oil finished bass will be lighter. And when it gets damaged the oil finish is easy to redo.

Except I use it on electric basses.

[Gearhead43]

It was suggested here that a "tung oil" finish wouldn't be correct for a bass because it penetrates the wood (why not?) , but I see "hand-rubbed oil finished" double basses for sale all the time.

How different are commercial oil finishes like Tru Oil or Watco etc than a "traditional" or hand-made oil varnish for a double bass?

They both are linseed oil-based, with drying agents and thinned down to make easier to work with, right?

Does it matter if it is really "tung oil" if it produces the same desired result? I have read that pure Tung oil needs to have driers added and thinned to work with and it would take a week or more to dry if used straight.

Not talking about violin shellac / amber varnish btw.

[Matthew Tucker]

I haven't tried all the possible finishing products. But since an ACOUSTIC DOUBLE BASS is stuck together with a water-based soluble glue, if you get oil deep into the wood, it could be harder to repair. Acoustic basses can develop cracks right through the thickness of the top, back or ribs, and these are glued only with hide glue. It is not an issue with an electric bass which is a thick slab of wood with bits bolted onto it.

I tested about four commercial oil based products for my first bass. All the tung-based ones were very penetrating and thin. Nice finish, but saturated the wood. Could have been fine, but i decided against them. The last product was not tung-based, thicker, and didn't penetrate, but rubbed on nicely. So i used it.

[toman]

In addition to what he ^^^ said, the problem with penetration (be it a "real" problem or not) is simply that string instrument makers have traditionally at least tried to keep wood and finish separate from one another. If anything, it probably is just a matter of principle so much as anything, in that we want to hear the instrument (i.e. the wood, skill and artistry) first and foremost, with all the other components (finish/varnish being one) simply complimenting or adjusting/balancing, or perhaps at worst compensating for some small deficiency.

Perhaps in reality this doesn't quite play out, but given that we've in no way perfected any string instrument just with the materials produced in nature and the skills and tools men come up with, I for one will pass at least for now on complicating the matter with chemistry I won't even attempt to understand.

None of which is to say I wouldn't play with using tung or other things in varnish, but personally I'd like to be at least knowledgeable about and proficient with something along the lines of what smarter and far more skilled guys than I have come up with.

[Gearhead43]

Drying oils do not remain liquid or "oily" after they penetrate the wood and cure.

They set hard, not like what we think of as a viscous oil. I can't see how this could hurt the glue joints. Although I can see maybe the carrier possibly doing so, but all finishes use a carrier of some sort.

Many basses are finished with oil finishes, including the New Standard basses.

I am by no means an expert on finishes, but I see some conflicting info in this thread. I would like to know more for my own information, not trying to start a debate.

[toman]

I don't think it is a matter of the glued seams so much as it is concern about future cracks and repairs. (and getting the new finish into old, perhaps not perfect, repairs) Basically there just isn't anything positive (on instruments) that is going to come from a finish that's been pulled actually into the wood. The modern commercial blends are just more extreme examples, given that they're invented by chemists trying to no doubt get just that quality along with an arbitrary handful of others that your average consumer will find attractive or of benefit.

But the problem isn't the oil in question, so far as I'm aware. Just whatever else is in the store-bought blend that causes more penetration than we want or need and who knows what else along the way.

[Matthew Tucker]

The purpose of a floor sealer or furniture varnish is to protect the wood against scuffs and dings, usually heavy wear, bring out the lustre in the wood, and the harder wearing the better. This is I guess why penetrating is good for floors. The thicker the layer of hardened oil or polymerised product, the more durable the finish. This would also apply to a slab bass. You can slap on many coats and the more the merrier.

But i think on an acoustic instrument, its purpose is slightly different; yes, to provide light protection against scuffs and light wear, bring out the lustre in the wood, but also it must be the minimum finish possible so as not to impede the ability of the wood to vibrate. So perhaps not all varnish products are good for this purpose. Perhaps they are too good, ie; over-engineered for the purpose?

Ans an un-varnished instrument can sound pretty damn good. But unless you love fingermarks and grime, you'd better varnish it.

[toman]

I hope none of the EBG guys stumble into this thread; things could get ugly if they're affiliated with one of the oil/nitro/poly gangs! I mean, the reason old guitars sound so good is that the tone-robbing finish is all worn off, right? I think it has something to do with the wood molecules all being vibrated into the right alignment, too, from all the funky licks that have been played. Like how using power tools to build string instruments steals their mojo, right?

[MEKer]

Tung Oil is interesting stuff. The realmilk site earlier mentioned is best I think nowadays. Homer Formsby or Formby pretty well introduced it to the USA in a big way back in the '70's. He even had a short run on TV as a DIY woodworking guru. I used to watch it in L.A. I still have 2 cans of it as I bought a bunch for use on some carved furniture and gunstocks. The Formby stuff used to be pure and not cut with anything else like Tung finish is. It dries to a matte finish. It does not soften wood as does linseed, waxes and others over time and use. Tung actually makes the cell walls of wood rigid individually yet the wood piece as a whole still has flexibility for the give and take of climate and temperature. Very excellent waterproofing properties that lasts a really, really long time. Great, tough stuff for any wood. Pressed outta the nuts/seeds of the tung tree (chinese). Never used it on instruments but from furniture and gunstocks, I'd put it on anything personally and feel I was giving the wood a fantastic treatment. Just an "IME" report for you.

[Matthew Tucker]

Then I'll have to try some of the pure stuff, if I can find it here

[toman]

^^^ Is there a problem getting that sort of product shipped where you are? Because I'd think the web is probably the best bet in terms of getting a fair price and on quality product and reliable supply.

For one thing, do we know how pure tung oil holds up? Does it spoil or degrade with time/heat/light; maybe there are different grades and types, like olive oil. Perhaps one variety is good for saute, but another for varnish or salads. (not garnish for salads) There may well be as many varieties of "tung" oil as "ebony" or "brazil" or "iron" wood, and I think we know that those are typically good for one thing or another, but often the vague names encompass many different species of tree, so naturally there should be some good variety.

Woods, oils, we should be careful if we aren't super sure what's what that we don't just get that much more confused. Pernambuco may be pernambuco, but clearly it isn't. No reason oils or for that matter most anything shouldn't be the same deal.

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, like tru oil, epoxies, solvents and other flammables, air shipping from the US is difficult in small quantities. It must be imported here industrially. I just haven't found any supplier yet.

[edit]

oh crap. What am i talking about. just found some.
http://www.thewoodworks.com.au/produ...ING/C2891.html