Tuning to Eb - Different Setup, Strings, etc.

[GT Kirk]

Hi Everyone,
This is my first post here and I'm sorry if this has been covered already but I searched and didn't find the answer so...

I just recently got an Englehardt M1 from Chuck Levins after
looking around for a few months.And I would like to thank everyone here for the great advise availble on the site.

On a couple of gigs I have, the guitar is tuned to Eb.
I could play most of the songs in standard 440 but would be missing that low open E on some songs.
When I tune down to Eb I get some rattle on the E & A strings up by the nut.I raised the action at the bridge but still get some buzz-rattle off the fingerboard.
Any suggestions as far as heavier strings with more tension
or something I could do to avoid another set-up.
Some gigs are standard tuning and others are tuned down a half step so I would prefer a solution that allowed me to tune
in either as needed.
Any suggestions?
Thanks,
Tom

[bejoyous]

When you tune the bottom string to Eb, you have a tritone ("the devil in music") between the bottom two strings. This is what is causing the strange vibrations.

Instead, try tuning the bottom string down to a low-D and finger the Eb. The strings will now have a nice D - A - D harmonic series at the bottom and should be fine. Plus, all the notes are in the same spot as on the upper D string.

[Michael Eisenman]

I don't play DB yet, but very soon. In the meantime, I've tuned one of my slabs to EbAbDbGb, and I was thinking I'd do the same when I go to DB. I play in a jazz combo in which a lot of songs are in Eb because of the sax, and I'm going to try to get into a swing big band. I want the low Eb.

Am I setting myself up for problems if I do this? I figure I'll get used to it, just as I did normal EADG tuning; after all, I'm just playing a half step higher for the same notes, and all the notes will have the same relationship as with EADG. I ask because I plan to take lessons, and I imagine that the fingering studies are probably set up for normal tuning. Or is it common to tune the E string to D? It's too early to consider a fingerboard extension.

Thx,
Michael

[pat1151]

As far as I know It's not a common practice nor is it recomended to use alternate tunings (except for solo tuning.. F#BEA). My reason for this would be becasue there would be a lack of tension in the strings which would give you a harder time getting good and clear notes. I would reccomend either looking into a 5 string bass or getting a C extension installed. They are costly but those are the standards to getting the lower notes.

[TheSuzie]

I think it depends on the bass, setup, strings and your playing style. There are a lot of possible tradeoffs. I actually have my 1/4 size Kay tuned down a full step on all strings but it also has the action mega high compared to my 3/4 size bass. The string tension on the Kay feels very high and I can pull it hard but it is almost impossible to play in the higher register due to the mega high action. I hope to put some bridge adjusters in at aome point and play around with it if I don't just get a different 1/4 (see other thread).

Good Luck,
S

[Michael Eisenman]

Originally Posted by pat1151

As far as I know It's not a common practice nor is it recomended to use alternate tunings . . . becasue there would be a lack of tension in the strings which would give you a harder time getting good and clear notes.

Do you think that a half step would make that much of a difference in playability? (It works fine on my electric bass.) If I got strings with slightly higher tension, then tuned down a half step they would play like lower-tension strings.

Michael

[robobass]

I like the idea - all fourths starting Eb - that is. Many strings come in heavy gauge, and you can also have the string height adjusted as necessary. Some basses might actually sound better with normal strings at the lower tension. One problem is the bass must aclimate itself to a change in tension, so if you are planning on playing an orchestra rehearsal in the afternoon and tuning down to play a jazz gig the same night, the bass will always be kind of unsettled. If you really want to do this, why not just leave it that way, and learn to transpose? Or, just cross out all the sharps in the key signature and add flats?
Robobass

[robobass]

Uh, Sorry. I meant X the b's and add #'s!

[TheSuzie]

Originally Posted by robobass

I One problem is the bass must aclimate itself to a change in tension, so if you are planning on playing an orchestra rehearsal in the afternoon and tuning down to play a jazz gig the same night, the bass will always be kind of unsettled. If you really want to do this, why not just leave it that way, and learn to transpose?
Robobass

I tend to agree. I have had my Kay tuned down for a few months and left it that way. Not plannning on changing it until I do a complete new setup. It seems very happy and stays in tune quite well.

Peace,
S

[GT Kirk]

I would be cool with staying in Eb if I needed to change the setup.
I may try restringing with starks to see if the heavier tension would be better suited for tuning a half step down.
The strings I have on now are what came on the bass, I think they are LaBella's?If I play more lightly then tuning everything down isn't a problem but to get some tone and projection I think more string tension could allow me to play the same way as in A440.
It seeems like the buzz is coming from up by the nut but only in Eb,it's not there at concert pitch. I was curious to see if anyone else had another string suggestion that may work without having to raise the nut.
If I change to heavier strings, should I have the bass re-set up for them? Any advice welcome.
Thank you,
Tom

[Michael Eisenman]

Originally Posted by robobass

I like the idea - all fourths starting Eb - that is . . . If you really want to do this, why not just leave it that way, and learn to transpose?
Robobass

That's what I've been doing on one of my slabs. Kinda easing myself into it when I practice. (Though if a gig came up tomorrow, I'd still play EADG, since I play my gigs on fretless, and that's enough to handle.) At some point, I'll have to make the jump. Just wondering if I'm getting myself into something I might regret.

M5L

[Bruce Lindfield]

I think you might well regret it...

So coming from BG via EUB to DB , I have found a vastly different technique is required if you are going to play with any kind of fluency - it's like learning a completely new instrument!!

Now there are many aspects to this, but one of the big differneces between BG and DB is that DB players make as much use of open strings as possible - for position shifts, checking intonation etc etc.

There are many good reasons for this and many written bass lines I've been given would be almost impossible - or just plain "very difficult", without extensive use of open strings.

It's also a big part of the Jazz DB sound - using open strings for percussive effects, little variations etc. etc.

So - you may think Eb is a useful note - but in reality there are far more situations where you would want an open G, A , D and maybe even that E!!

I think you are going to make things very hard for yourself if you lose that invaluable reference and resource of the open strings ...

[robobass]

I agree that the tuning is part of the traditional sound, but don't forget that jazz standards are already horn-centric. They are in flat keys because that's where the sax and trumpet players were comfortable. The bass always adjusted to them. Remember the Bb tuning note on Aebersold records? Retuning might give a jazz player some fresh insight. I personally would tune up a half step instead of down. If you play F-Bb-Eb-Ab you've got a lot of open strings on tonic notes.
Robobass

[Bruce Lindfield]

They always have an A tuning note as well!!

I play Jazz a lot and open G is very useful in many tunes - as are D and A - many of the typical "horn" keys contain these notes.

I think you have to bear in mind that DB has hundreds of years of history of different tunings and setups - and after all that EADG has persisted as the most useful ... and there is a reason for this!

[TheSuzie]

Yup, there is a reason why I am tuning down a full step instead of a half step.

[Michael Eisenman]

This is just the kind of information I'm looking for. I welcome more ideas. Keep 'em coming.

Thanks, all.
Michael