Tuning in fifths with an extension - possible?

**Adrian Cho** · #1 08-12-2008, 02:05 AM

For some reason I just wondered whether it had ever been done? If the bottom string was tuned to C, wouldn't the extension have to be a specially-made one with a longer length that goes to A?!?!

Verth · #2 08-12-2008, 03:41 AM

Hi Adrian,

No I don't think the extension thing has been done or ever will be, because one of the main points of playing in fifths is to avoid the whole extension issue.

Apart from it (the extension I mean ) being cumbersome and impedeing good low end passage work it also adds weight to the scroll impedeing vibration of the neck and thus muting the bass.

regards

**Adrian Cho** · #3 08-12-2008, 04:27 AM

Well actually there's plenty of people who will argue with you about whether the extension makes the bass sound better or worse or makes no difference. Lots of posts on that topic in various threads around here. The fact is that many bass players are just low note maniacs. Anything you can play, I can play lower...

robobass · #4 08-12-2008, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Verth

Hi Adrian,

No I don't think the extension thing has been done or ever will be, because one of the main points of playing in fifths is to avoid the whole extension issue.

Apart from it (the extension I mean ) being cumbersome and impedeing good low end passage work it also adds weight to the scroll impedeing vibration of the neck and thus muting the bass.

regards

Why don't you really tell us what you think?

Anyway, why not? I know someone in BSO who made an A-Extension (would have been a "D-Extension on a 4-string) on his 5-string and cheated with a normal H5. I don't think it would be out of the question to have a long A4 custom made. Also, there are huge tonal advantages to fifths tuning. Adding a low A in this tuning would support the A1.

I say, go for it!

Robobass

Bob Branstetter · #5 08-12-2008, 09:50 AM

The only problem I can see is that you will probably need to contact your favorite string manufacturer to see if they will make you an extra long C String for the extension. I'm not aware of any commercially available extra long strings except for the common E/C string.

**Adrian Cho** · #6 08-12-2008, 10:04 AM

But it would have to be a custom-made extension right? I mean the length and the positions of the gates would have to be different to a standard extension on a bass tuned in fourths.

Co. · #7 08-12-2008, 10:47 AM

The Extension itself could stay the same, if you were talking about an A flat Extension. E to C is a major third. From a C string a major third down is A flat.
But the tuning doesn't matter at all. The position of the stops is - just like the position of your fingers - determined by the scale length, which stays the same.
If you like, you can take a very heavy E/C and just tune it down a major third.
A Spiro Medium E/C has a tension of 39kp tune down to C/Aflat the tension is 24kp. Velvet Strings have a tension of 23kp, I think.

anonymous12251111 · #8 08-13-2008, 01:46 AM

For a Low C to speak properly you need the added mensure (ie an extension, unless you want to play a bass with a 48" mensure...)

Even if you use an extra thick string and use a bass with a 42" mensure a Low C (without the extension) will not speak well (this is also similiar to a five string bass.)

If you follow the rules of string theory and violin making, the LOWER the pitch, the LONGER the string.

In reality most extensions need to be about an inch and a half longer for the Low C to be really in tune and speak properly.

One could also argue that from historical treatises a true "Double" Bass register instrument needs an overall mensure at 42" at the minimum due to the register of the instrument.

anonymous12251111 · #9 08-13-2008, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Co.

The Extension itself could stay the same, if you were talking about an A flat Extension. E to C is a major third. From a C string a major third down is A flat.
But the tuning doesn't matter at all. The position of the stops is - just like the position of your fingers - determined by the scale length, which stays the same.
If you like, you can take a very heavy E/C and just tune it down a major third.
A Spiro Medium E/C has a tension of 39kp tune down to C/Aflat the tension is 24kp. Velvet Strings have a tension of 23kp, I think.

I don't know where you get these theories from that if you lower the pitch, the scale will still remain the same...???

As an experiment you should play instruments of different mensures with Low C's to see how they compare in sound.

It's already a huge stretch to consider a Low C at 42" scale (without the extension), then to start wondering about tones even lower than that without increasing the mensure significantly.

Bob Branstetter · #10 08-13-2008, 09:56 AM

There is a lot more involved violin family strings than length. In his book "The Bowed String", Norman C. Pickering's first chapter is titled "Requirement for the Perfect String". He discusses "Theoretical versus actual strings; use of new methods and materials for design and testing. Effect of bending stiffness; elasticity of core materials; diameter effect on torsion. Use of metal windings; amplitude control by bowing; light versus heavy gauge string; damping." This is a must read book for anyone who wishes to learn about the nuts and bolts of the bowed strings. While it is not specifically about bass strings, the principles still apply.

Here is another article that Mr. Pickering wrote the Southern California Violin Maker's Assn. titled "How the Bow Produces Sound from a String". It was originally presented in 1994, so some of the technology mentioned may be dated by today's standards.

Eric Swanson · #11 08-13-2008, 11:22 AM

Thank you very much for this, Bob Branstetter!

bejoyous · #12 08-13-2008, 11:34 AM

Hey, with a KC extension on a tuned in fifths bass, you could hit a low-G!

anonymous12251111 · #13 08-13-2008, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bejoyous

Hey, with a KC extension on a tuned in fifths bass, you could hit a low-G!

Once again, do you have any idea how long that extension would need to be in order to accommodate a LOW G???? It's not as simple as adding a few inches to a scroll...Believe it or not there are fairly rigid guidelines in regards to string making.

Also, why on earth would you need a Low G? A low B isn't even necessary, I know of 3 pieces that involve it, and it also mucks up the resonance of the instrument.

A C open will resonate much more harmoniously with the other strings on the bass than a B.

mikeypbass · #14 08-13-2008, 11:49 AM

If your going to tune in fifths, why not get a cello?

Co. · #15 08-13-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I don't know where you get these theories from that if you lower the pitch, the scale will still remain the same...???

As an experiment you should play instruments of different mensures with Low C's to see how they compare in sound.

It's already a huge stretch to consider a Low C at 42" scale (without the extension), then to start wondering about tones even lower than that without increasing the mensure significantly.

I just answered Adrians question, if the stops of the extension (he alreadyhas, or any other extension) can stay in the same place, where they are, if he wishes to tune done a major third.

The answer is yes. Intervals are ratios of frequencies. If you take the E string and play an Emaj scale your fingers are placed at certain positions. If you tune down to C and play a Cmaj scale, your fingers must be at exactly the same positions. The same is true for fingers or stops on an extension.

I didn't say anything, how the sound will be. I didn't say, that 41" is the perfect string lenght for any tuning or that an extended string length of 51" will sound good or bad or anything for a Subcontra Aflat. I just did the math.

So now, if you ask me: I don't think a contra C will sound good with 42", unless you have a really nice bass. I can't imagine a subcontra Aflat could sound even OK on any instrument other than organ.

anonymous12251111 · #16 08-13-2008, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikeypbass

If your going to tune in fifths, why not get a cello?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves though...I've played in fifths and it's a great experience. The idea of having fifths as your open strings really makes the instrument resonate better. You have to play with a lot of pivots, rotations and four finger technique to get around a bass in fifths well. The only thing I didn't like about it was the low C, IMO the sound didn't even compare to that of a bass with a well setup extension, due to the short strength of the vibrating low c.

I'm glad that we see eye to eye Co.

robobass · #17 08-15-2008, 08:07 AM

I must correct myself. Yes, a normal extension would ring Ab if the 4th string were tuned to C. Perhaps making the extension only a minor third long would be better resonance-wise, or put a latch on the A.

As to fifths tuning, A student of mine converted. I heard the bass both ways, and it sounded way better in fifths. He had a learning curve with all the pivoting, of course, but he's doing really well with it. A low C is still a low C, however, and a thick Obligato made for that pitch at 42" is more challenging to make speak than a E-IV.

As for getting the string. Why not call up Pirastro and ask? I bet they could do it reasonably.

Robobass