type of glue?

ethnotime · #1 12-31-2007, 12:47 AM

Hello,
I've got a wood bass and a piece off the top broke off. I don't know how to describe it but it's the curly tip that protrudes out a bit on the side. It's a small piece (about 1 inch wide) but for cosmetics I'd like to glue it back on myself. What kind of glue should I use?
Thanks

toman · #2 12-31-2007, 02:29 AM

Hide glue is the only thing that should be used. That said, without having seen the instrument, I have to say that a luthier would be better suited to performing this repair, unless you have some woodworking experience. It sounds like you broke off the violin-corner piece of the top. I don't know for sure, but I wouldn't think it would be that expensive to have repaired unless there's more damage.

Silversorcerer · #3 12-31-2007, 09:44 AM

It sounds to me like you might have broken off a violin corner, which is really minor cosmetic damage. Definitely use flake hide glue to put it back. If you are not familiar with flake hide glue, take it to someone who is.

1st Bass · #4 12-31-2007, 09:47 AM

When someone says "a piece off the top broke off. I don't know how to describe it but it's the curly tip that protrudes out a bit on the side" I think he means the last turn of the scroll, including the eye. Without further description, I would not think he meant the corner of the top plate.

If there is a clean break, and the piece can be readily fitted back in for an invisible seam, then I see no problem with a DIY job on that repair. Also, while I agree that hide glue is best, IF he got a perfect fit the first try, then almost any kind of strong, nearly colorless glue is OK, as reversibility is not much of an issue, on the scroll...But there's the rub...glue joints frequently do not end up perfect the first try, so reversibility MAY be an issue. So, I really think that hot hide glue is the best choice. And, while I agree that cosmetics is the main reason for the repair, a bad glue joint is as unaesthetic as inexpertly applied cosmetics...and a lot harder to fix.

Silversorcerer · #5 12-31-2007, 09:58 AM

I think you may be right if by "top" he means scroll. My bad. But a violin corner is a "curly tip that protrudes out a bit on the side...." If it really is the piece of the scroll that sticks out on the side, hide glue would still be the most invisible glue line if a cosmetically perfect repair is what you are going for. If you are just going for the "looks like it's all there from 5 ft. away...." use something regrettable.

Darren Molnar · #6 12-31-2007, 12:37 PM

My New Years wish for mankind this year is for every one to discover the joy, power and ease of use of hide glue for wooden products.

My New Years prediction is that this will be as easily attainable as my other, regular, New Years wishes. World peace. And a bigger workshop.

Happy New Years, one and all!!

ethnotime · #7 12-31-2007, 06:00 PM

I had a feeling I was a little vague in my post. I attached a picture and hopefully it's clearer. I have no idea of the terminology of the different parts of my own instrument! The job is completely cosmetic. I just don't want to spend $50 for someone to what appears to be a simple gluing job.

Thanks to everyone who responded.

Kevin Hsieh · #8 12-31-2007, 06:25 PM

hide glue for sure. this is relatively inexpensive.

ethnotime, it'd be very easy for a luthier to fix. If you fill in your profile and location, we can point you in the right direction. with hide glue, i believe you need to get a glue pot and clamps and that stuff and that'll add up in your cost. Just bring it in for the repair and a regular checkup

best of luck, happy new year

kev

1st Bass · #9 12-31-2007, 06:50 PM

I guess, to my way of thinking, a single good-sized clamp (borrowed or bought) and a teaspoonful of hide glue in a cup, in the microwave, warmed by increments, is not too great an investment. This is certainly something I would feel free to fix myself, as it is a very clean break, the whole chip seems to be there, it is dead easy to refit and clamp...

If you do feel obliged to buy a gluepot, please be advised that a second-hand potpourri pot works fine. Other luthiers, (Matthew Tucker, to be specific) use an inverted clothes iron with a can and a jar, to heat their glue. If you can't come up with a source for hide glue, you could even use Knox gelatine for such a repair...though some may disdain such practice.

Anyhow...don't be intimidated. This is an easy one.

Darren Molnar · #10 12-31-2007, 07:28 PM

Couple of rubber bands might work well as a clamp, also.

ethnotime · #11 01-01-2008, 06:21 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone. I think I'll try the DIY method before taking it to someone. I live in NYC so there are plenty of luthiers here who can do the job. I'm just trying save some money.

Silversorcerer · #12 01-02-2008, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

I guess, to my way of thinking, a single good-sized clamp (borrowed or bought) and a teaspoonful of hide glue in a cup, in the microwave, warmed by increments, is not too great an investment. This is certainly something I would feel free to fix myself, as it is a very clean break, the whole chip seems to be there, it is dead easy to refit and clamp...

If you do feel obliged to buy a gluepot, please be advised that a second-hand potpourri pot works fine. Other luthiers, (Matthew Tucker, to be specific) use an inverted clothes iron with a can and a jar, to heat their glue. If you can't come up with a source for hide glue, you could even use Knox gelatine for such a repair...though some may disdain such practice.

Anyhow...don't be intimidated. This is an easy one.

+1 all the way. Luscombe Violins has small packets of flake hide glue. I cook up as little a a 1/4 teaspoon at a time by putting a small jar with some glue and water in a larger bowl filled with water. I heat it with a few 30 second cycles of the microwave and stir in between. You don't need a glue pot for this one. The surrounding water bath in the bowl will keep the glue hot while you get it done. As far as clamping, if you get the hide glue right, you can hold it in place and count to 100 and it is going to be stuck already. I don't think you even need a clamp for this one, although a rubber band or a circle of string, or even tape would certainly work. Just get it stuck on there, let it set for about 12 hours and you are good to go.

Bob Branstetter · #13 01-02-2008, 04:49 PM

It really isn't necessary to use flake hide glue. Dry granulated hide glue is much easier to find and for our purpose, there is no difference. I use 4 oz baby bottles and mix up an ounce of glue to 2 ounce water for small repairs. Hide glue is cheap so I would rather throw the excess away rather than risk not having enough glue for the job. Let the glue absorb the water for a couple or hours or over night and then zap it in a microwave for a enough time to get the glue hot (actually warm to the touch is fine), but be sure not to boil the glue. For the amount I mix up, about 30 seconds is all it takes. I have a glue pot, but seldom use it any more except for big jobs. I just keep a few bottle with the water saturated glue in a refrigerator and heat them up as I need them.

robobass · #14 01-03-2008, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

I use 4 oz baby bottles and mix up an ounce of glue to 2 ounce water for small repairs. I just keep a few bottle with the water saturated glue in a refrigerator and heat them up as I need them.

I keep a 8oz jelly jar partly filled with mixed glue in the fridge and heat it up by setting it in a saucepan half full of water and put it on the stove. That way I've got lots of hot water on hand to wet the surfaces, clean the excess, and further dilute the glue when necessary. When finished I bring it near a boil, cap it tight, and return to the fridge when cool. Very convenient and it will last forever!
Robobass

Steve Swan · #15 01-03-2008, 04:23 AM

This looks like a nice old bass that is in the hands of someone that doesn't know enough about it to take care of it properly. Old instruments like this are not replaceable. We are not just the owners of these old instruments, but stewards of them with a responsiblilty to care for them to pass on in decent condition to the next owner. If you can't bring yourself to spend $50.00 on a reasonable repair, you should probably take this old bass to a good bass shop and trade it in on something cheaper, more durable, and more replaceable. When I first read this post I thought that "ethnotime" was pulling our collective leg.

1st Bass · #16 01-03-2008, 06:57 AM

Looks to me like a responsible owner trying to learn from the assembled luthiers how to MAKE a reasonable repair...that is extra-responsible, not irresponsible, ownership. There is nothing at all wrong with ethnotime's question, and this is about the simplest repair to start on.

I build instruments now, and repair them regularly for schools, university orchestras, etc., but I began by buying a bunch of cheap, broken violins on e-bay, and practicing thereupon. The idea was that they were MY violins, and anything I did was my choice. and at my cost. I did not damage them, as a rule, and they all gained in value through my learning curve.

How could ethnotime possibly hurt his bass by glueing that chip back onto his scroll? Why do you think he should not attempt to learn the basics of lutherie on his own bass? This is reminiscent of mechanics who don't want you to do the maintenance on your own car. Doctors who don't want you to learn the rudiments of self-care. Very suspect response...

Steve Swan · #17 01-03-2008, 12:05 PM

It takes a lot of force to break part of a scroll off of a bass. "ethnotime" doesn't even seem to know how it happened. If a guy is this rough and careless with a nice old bass, how do we expect him to do a credible repair? It'll just another nice old bass with a horribly done home repair just to save $50.00. The world doesn't need any more of these.

Rant mode off.

wineaux · #18 01-03-2008, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

It takes a lot of force to break part of a scroll off of a bass. "ethnotime" doesn't even seem to know how it happened. If a guy is this rough and careless with a nice old bass, how do we expect him to do a credible repair? It'll just another nice old bass with a horribly done home repair just to save $50.00. The world doesn't need any more of these.

Rant mode off.

Let's not jump to too many conclusions. Because Ethnotime doesn't specifically say how the damage happened doesn't necessarily mean he "doesn't even seem to know how it happened." So we don't know he was "this rough and careless" or whether it was one of those "stuff happens" moments. And even if he was rough and careless, why should we assume he can't do a credible repair?

I have no woodworking skills whatsoever, but I do have a luthier I like and trust, so if this were my bass, I'd be off to see him ASAP. But if Ethno is up to attempting this repair, I say go for it and learn from the entire experience -- how to prevent it from happening again, how to glue it properly, etc.

Peace.

1st Bass · #19 01-03-2008, 03:02 PM

Amen.

Besides, I have had a scroll crack and break just because of a change in humidity. (I live in Oregon, and went to Tucson for three weeks.) It was a viola, not a bass, but the principle is the same, and on the viola, the WHOLE scroll broke off. I glued it back on, and that has been four years ago, now. It is holding just fine, and only one person has ever spotted the crack.