Upgrading Tuning Machines...

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Steve Swan

The tuners on my two Xuechang Sun basses are similar or identical to the standard halfplate tuners that Eastman uses. They are alright on basses in this price range. Rubner tuners of any type would be a step up from these Chinese halfplate tuners and remain price appropriate for a bass of this kind. The Rubner tuners represent a consistently good quality standard compared to the range of other Chinese tuners that I've had experience with. I certainly prefer all of the Rubner models as compared with the tuners that Kolstein likes to put on their basses (Gagnon?). Barry Kolstein couldn't believe that I preferred Rubner hatpegs instead of his huge brass tuners that tended to be a little eccentric in their gear cut and sometimes a little rough. I regularly have to quickly tune up 8-10 basses at a time in my shop just before a customer arrives to look at instruments in a certain price or functional range. I've never experienced any difference in tuning performance of the hatpeg Rubner tuners compared to their brass shaft sisters when the tuners are properly installed on the bass and the strings are properly installed on the tuners.

Ken, you have a collection of really fine top quality basses worth in the tens to over one hundred thousand dollars apiece. It is price appropriate to do full-bore restorations and repairs to these great old instruments and to require for yourself an extra bit of performance for tuning machines when playing in high level professional orchestras. The inherent danger in this perspective, though, is that you tend to dismiss out of hand almost anything that is not in the highest ranges of performance and cost. I maintain that for a $3-4,000.00 student bass, the Rubner tuners will give Kevin significantly better performance over the comparatively rougher gear cutting found on his stock tuners found on his high quality student Chinese bass.

Steve, I was mainly referring to just the hatpegs and not the basses themselves. Tuning is tuning no mater how much the Bass costs. On the Rubner vs Chinese Rubner copies I have both here as well. My Corsini's as you know come with Rubners. My new Amati model Basses have Chinese Rubner copies and since setting them up I can say they are just as good for the models I have.

On the Hatpeg posts, they are thicker and will tune quicker as the srting wraps around the post. Therefor the smaller Brass tuner can tune slightly finer I think. No?.. Please correct me if I am wrong. I have loads of experience with hatpeg gears. The German Bass I owned in the begging or my playing career had hatpegs. I used that Bass for several years. My Batchelder which I still have had old Hatpegs from the 19th century which I replaced with Rubner Hatpegs and used that Bass for many years as well. I need my Bass in tune so it's Brass for me whenever possible!

Examples.. Old hatpegs/New Rubner hatpegs;



Rubner plates/Chinese Rubner copies;

[drurb]

Well the post above seems more kind to Rubners, in general, and Rubner hat-pegs, in particular, than this statement made earlier:

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Yes, the creek. Yes, they are hard to tune. Yes, they may look nice. No, they don't work as well as fine brass type gears.

Physics dictates that coarser/smaller gears and larger tuning pegs will result in a smaller turn of the tuning key to effect a given change in pitch. The coarser/smaller gears of Rubners (standard or hat-peg) as compared to "fine brass type gears" would be expected to yield less precision. As Steve Swan points out, the latter are beyond the budget of many and afford a level of function that, for many, is also unnecessary. The somewhat larger tuning pegs of the hat-pegs will also decrease the amount of rotation of the tuning key required for a given change in pitch. The question is whether the difference in precision yielded by standard Rubners vs. Rubner hat-pegs is substantial and/or meaningful to anyone other than a pro-level orchestra player.

So much for the physics. As far as the claim that Rubner hat-pegs creak and are difficult to use, that sure doesn't seem to be a valid generalization. Again, see Steve Swan's post that jibes with what others here have reported.

[Kevin Hsieh]

oh man... here we go AGAIN

you mean... they... creak... right?
possible english major... sorry

DONT HURT ME!

ok... a question for those in the know. I really dig tuners without plates. but my bass has plates on them. would it look ok if i got plateless tuners in the future? there would be screwholes no?

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Kevin Hsieh

oh man... here we go AGAIN

you mean... they... creak... right?
possible english major... sorry

DONT HURT ME!

ok... a question for those in the know. I really dig tuners without plates. but my bass has plates on them. would it look ok if i got plateless tuners in the future? there would be screwholes no?

Lol.. yea, the one that makes the sound, not runs into a river.. swy...

The screw holes can be easily filled and the varnish touched up. I have a Bass in restoration now that had plates when I got it and I put new individual gears in it. They will be re-installed differently and all the holes re-done and touched up. It's not uncommon at all. I like the look of gears on the wood.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

My Post you quoted had a Typo now corrected. It should have read; Yes theY creek, not thE creek. I have used all sorts of tuners and NO you don't have to be a professional Orchestra player to want to be able to Tune your Bass better. By the way, the first thing you do just before you start to play is TUNE the Bass. Most of us know that is important!

Indeed. I have never heard anyone claim that you cannot tune a bass adequately with Rubner hat-pegs. It is simply a matter of how much the pitch will change given a small turn of the key. The question is one of relative difficulty not ultimate precision of the result. For that matter, Kay basses with their small-geared Kluson tuners would be at the extreme in this regard. This is much ado about nothing.

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

I agree that the hatpegs look nice on some Basses but they just don't tune as well so, why use them? If you don't care that much about being in tune then don't bother discussing it...

I care very much about being in tune. It is folly to think that, with Rubner hat-pegs, you cannot bring the string dead-on to pitch. To quote Steve Swan, "I've never experienced any difference in tuning performance of the hatpeg Rubner tuners compared to their brass shaft sisters when the tuners are properly installed on the bass and the strings are properly installed on the tuners." Again, it is simply a matter of gearing ratio and how "touchy" the key will be. Steve Swan's experience along with my own and that of others indicates that this is typically not a problem.

[Damon Rondeau]

This is going nowhere now but Badsville. The thread's closed. I've edited it to remove the objectionable material. It's too bad -- there was some useful information being developed here.