Varnish or Lacquer?

andy21918 · #1 05-04-2009, 06:27 PM

I have an old Czechoslavakian bass that sounds better then it looks. The stain has been chipping away for years so I decided to refinish it. I have it all sanded down and am ready to stain it. My question is varnish or lacquer? I'm using Minwax stain (oil based). I've read that you shouldnt use the lacquer spray on oil based stains. Is that true? I'm not so worried about it looking perfect. Its an old bass and has dings and scratches so I dont want it to really look brand new. I am mostly concerned if any will alter the sound or completly ruin my stain and have to start all over again. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

jallenbass · #2 05-04-2009, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy21918

I've read that you shouldnt use the lacquer spray on oil based stains. Is that true?

I've refinished more than a few pianos using nitro lacquer over oil based stain. No problems. I'm not sure that I would use that on a bass though.

Jazzdogg · #3 05-04-2009, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andy21918

I have an old Czechoslavakian bass that sounds better then it looks. The stain has been chipping away for years so I decided to refinish it. I have it all sanded down and am ready to stain it. My question is varnish or lacquer? I'm using Minwax stain (oil based). I've read that you shouldnt use the lacquer spray on oil based stains. Is that true? I'm not so worried about it looking perfect. Its an old bass and has dings and scratches so I dont want it to really look brand new. I am mostly concerned if any will alter the sound or completly ruin my stain and have to start all over again. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks

I wouldn't recommend applying a pigmented stain to unsealed maple or spruce as both can be challenging to color without blotching or grain reversal. Some of the biggest disappointments my furniture making students have suffered were the result of the problems encountered when artifically coloring blotch-prone species like maple and softwoods.

andy21918 · #4 05-04-2009, 09:54 PM

So dont use the oil based stain? What would be the best stain/varnish or lacquer combo to use?

MIKMAN · #5 05-05-2009, 01:07 AM

IMHO an old instrument deserves the best treatment. I'd give it a thorough sanding to eliminate scratches, i'd treate the possible dents and after all these procedures i'd stain it with the water based aniline dyes, which are very common and can be found everywhere.
Prior to the staining i prefer to treat my instruments with a good sealer or ground and the choice of the sealer depends of the final varnish. If the final varnish is going to be an oil based varnish my preferable ground is the Imprimitura Minerale, obtained from the DICK GmbH store. If the final varnish is going to be a spirit varnish, i prefer a shellac treatment with purnice stone as pore filler.
Oil varnishes and spirit varnishes are easily found in the various suppliers. I prefer to varnish my instruments with the traditional French polishing. The polished instrument has a very beautiful appearance with the smooth, shining surface. French polishing is a tiresome and time consuming method but an old instrument deserves it.

vejesse · #6 05-05-2009, 07:29 AM

Is there a particular reason you want to use lacquer? Are you good with a spray gun? Stinking up the shop with lacquer thinner is not something I look forward to.

I'd say use oil or spirit varnish. If it's an old Czech bass that's probably what it was finished with originally and I think you'll be more satisfied in the end.

ctregan · #7 05-05-2009, 07:37 AM

I would not use an oil stain on raw spruce. The oil will soak into the spruce and kill the sound.

Martin Sheridan · #8 05-05-2009, 08:08 AM

First, how are things in Galax? Been years since I was through there, but my wife and kids and I camped out at the Bluegrass festival one time many years ago.
Generally refinishing an old bass lowers the value of the instrument, but if you've already sanded it down you might as well go ahead. Bass makers use oil and spirit varnishes; the nitro is found only on the cheaper factory basses. However, if you insist on doing it yourself you may want to go ahead and do whatever is easiest for you. My experience is that nitro kills sound. Oil is easiest to use but takes longer to dry. Spirit dries fast but takes some experience to use well. One oil that is easy to use and dries fast is Tru Oil which was developed for use on gun stocks and can be found in gun stores and in the gun section of the local Walfart. If I were you I'd search previous posts on varnish, most of the luthiers have contributed their opinions and advice.

andy21918 · #9 05-05-2009, 05:01 PM

Thanks everyone for you input. I just got back from Lowes with a waterbased stain. So I'm gonna go ahead and try that. And then maybe top it off with a varnish. So in between coats I should sand correct? To Martin Sheridan Galax is still going strong with the festival. Bigger every year!

zeytoun · #10 05-05-2009, 08:29 PM

The blotch warning applied to both water and oil-based stains. That's why the recommendation to use aniline based water-soluble dye (a powder that you mix with hot water). The aniline based dyes tend to give a much more even stain on blotch-prone wood, as well as accenting the grain.

What color are you going for on your bass? Light or dark? If you're going with a lighter look, you could skip dye altogether, and use amber shellac to darken the bass to a nice warm lighter color.

After the aniline dye, you could use tru oil, or another curing oil as a sealer coat (it will also enhace the grain and deepen the gloss of the finish), and then do a french polish over the top.

And of course, I would recommend finding some scrap spruce and maple, and testing your entire process on them first, before touching the bass.

fdeck · #11 05-05-2009, 09:46 PM

Where can I get aniline dyes? This is not for a bass project, but for matching the woodwork in my house.

zeytoun · #12 05-05-2009, 10:38 PM

lmii.com for one

Jake deVilliers · #13 05-06-2009, 12:41 AM

Mohawk or something like http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/i...S&Category=280

**Damon Rondeau** · #14 05-06-2009, 04:09 PM

Lee Valley has got water-soluble aniline dye.

There are also alcohol-soluble anilines available (not at Lee Valley, though.)

Jazzdogg · #15 05-06-2009, 07:18 PM

I've achieved great results using the Transtint concentrated aniline dyes distributed by Jeff Jewitt:

http://www.homesteadfinishingproduct.../TransTint.htm

A 2-Oz bottle of Transtint will yield 2 quarts of dye at the recommended dilution ratio, and it can be mixed with water, alcohol, and MEK, and added directly to shellac, lacquer, and water-borne finishes. I buy mine a the local Rockler.

The Transfast powered dyes aren't nearly as lightfast, and can only be dissolved in water.

fdeck · #16 05-06-2009, 08:32 PM

Thanks for the tips!

scotty77 · #17 05-07-2009, 08:33 PM

There is a really good book called "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. Make sure you get the Revised and updated version.
You can also pick up some good tips from StewMac's "Guitar Finishing, Step by Step 2nd edition.
Jeff Jewitt does a lot of articles for "Fine Woodworking" magazine so you know he knows his stuff as well.

james condino · #18 05-08-2009, 08:45 AM

If you want to see the full possibility of how much you can do with color and water based dyes, go to www.finewoodworking.com and watch the video on handrubing a sunburst finish. I believe the nerdy fellow in the video is even known to post here now now and then...

j.
www.condino.com

Jake deVilliers · #19 05-08-2009, 10:25 AM

That's for members only James...

james condino · #20 05-08-2009, 11:29 AM

Jake:

They've been reworking the format over at finewoodworking.com a bit this year so it is hard to keep up with. I just checked it and you can still watch my video and about 350 others right now for free. They've got a 14 day free trial going on, so everyone should have access to it. I went to Taunton.com (publishing company that owns FWW), then went to FWW and it came right up.

If I was more computer savy, I'd be able to post the direct link. I've been able to hit it via a link from the mandolincafe.com all year without signing in. Maybee one of our resident web jedi's can help...

As always, no financial interestd here, my apologies if I just somehow broke one of the forum rules, written, unwritten, or as yet not of even thought about, but somehow applies to the conversation....I offered it up because, as far as I know, it gives a pretty detailed look at the real application and use of color with water based dyes in instrument application. I'd actually be fine if I could find something that did a better job, that way I could send all the folks that call me every week looking for info on that emerald green sunburst somewhere else and I could stick to the sawdust and spruce shavings in my hair routine of luthier's solidtude...

j.