VARNISH MATTERS

[Martin Sheridan]

I'd like to start this thread to cover varnishes, varnish making and related matters. There have been so many questions about this subject that I hope we can draw many of your concerns into this one thread. Perhaps some of you can copy previous comments and add them to mine.

I'd like to start with a varnish formula that is probably the easiest and one of the most beautiful varnishes that you can make yourself.

Receipe for SEEDLAC varnish:

45 grams of seedlac finely ground and put into a nylon stocking. You won't need the whole stocking just cut off to just above a foot and put the seedlac into the stocking and tie off one end of it.

Get a jar like a Mason jar and put 180ml of alcohol in it.
Put the sock in the jar and screw the cap on tight.

Now shake the jar every chance you get over the next couple of days and bingo you have varnish.

If you are in a nice sunny climate put the jar out in the sun this will heat the mixture and "melt" the seedlac into the alcohol. If you are in a cold climate put it on the heat vent or on top of your radiator. You can even put it in a water bath and heat it on the stove, but let's not have any explosions ok?

It's a good idea to further strain the liquid into another jar. Pouring it through another part of the nylon stocking will work just fine. You want to be sure to get out any foreign matter.
Seedlac is produced from trees in India and I suppose elsewhere. They eat the resin of the tree and what passes through them is the seedlac. It usually has a lot of twigs and bug parts in it, so the need to filter it.

Generally plasticizers are added to this formula to soften the varnish, but I don't really think this is necessary because you're going to be using a lot of oil in the rubbing out process.

It you use Siam Seelac it will produce a very nice brown varnish but generally you'll want to use a lighter seelac and add aniline dyes to the mixture. The aniline dyes can be mixed in small bottles with alcohol and added to the varnish.

You'll want to seal the wood first before using this varnish but you could just make a clear and thin mixture of it and brush it on the instrument first. Use 220 wet and dry sand paper for a very light sanding in between coats. It's best to use a fairly thin mix of this varnish which means you may want to add some more alcohol to it. The longer the seedlac stays in the bottle the thicker the varnish will be. You want it to be a nice brushing consistency and it's a good idea to keep a dish of alcohol on the bench to rewet your brush to keep the brush working easily and to avoid brush marks which are troublesome to remove later.

The final polish is done with a good lint free rag; I like a nice piece of old worn jean material. Get a squeeze bottle of alcohol and another of mineral oil. Squeeze some alchohol on the rag and put a drop or two of oil on the rag and then work on a small area rubbing, rubbing, rubbing with some pressure. This will eventually produce a very smooth and shiny finish.
Keep the rag moving and don't let it stick or you'll have a problem. Experience is the best teacher but I've seen instruments done this way that are absolutely startingly beautiful.

Below is Sacconi's receipe for the 1704 varnish which is
similar to the above but with the addition of plasticizers.

43 grams of seedlac
9ml spike lavender oil
7.5 gms elemy
180 ml alcohol
All of these ingredients can be purchased from the better suppliers of violin woods and tools as well as Kremer pigments in New York.

Sacconi used this varnish to touch up Stradivari's and other fine Italian violins of the golden period.
Like all varnishes it is not a perfect product. It can be chippy and if you get too much oil into it the case or bag can leave an imprint in the finish that has to be rubbed out again.

I hope that with this thread other luthiers will share their "secrets" and we can answer your questions about varnishes.

If someone else doesn't join in with the glazing method, I'll come back in a few days and explain my system that I've been using for years.

good luck

[mojoluthier]

I know I have trouble concentrating sometimes, and it's probably in there, byut WHAT is eating the resin? The Indians? I would have quessed insects except for the size of the impurities.

[Steve Swan]

Martin it's nice to see your posting. I've admired photos of your basses. Have you seen compatibility issues with different brands of varnish or with differrent plasticizers in doing finish repairs?

[Damon Rondeau]

I think it's a great topic, but let's get started off on the right foot with a definition.

People use the word "varnish" in all kinds of ways, but it's a particular thing. It's a finish where some kind of tough resin (natural or artifical) has been cooked into a curing oil. There is usually some kind of solvent mixed in there, too. There are also such things as spirit varnishes where I believe there is little or no oil, but instead a lot more of the rapidly evaporating solvent?

[PoorPlayer]

Originally Posted by mojoluthier

I know I have trouble concentrating sometimes, and it's probably in there, byut WHAT is eating the resin? The Indians? I would have quessed insects except for the size of the impurities.

I was wondering the same thing. Wikipedia has an explanation.

[Martin Sheridan]

The bugs eat the resin. The resin is very sticky and so tree parts, bug parts, dirt etc stick to it after it has passed through the critters body.

A varnish has traditionally been defined as a resin or resins in alcohol(spirit varnish) or oil (oil varnish). Not all resins are soluable in alcohol as far as I know, and not all can be incorporated into oil which requires cooking and can be very dangerous to make. I personally do not recommend that you make your own oil varnish. Dispite following the directions to the letter I was severely burned trying to make Fulton's varnish and a friend of mine had the same experience.

Tru Oil which is actually linseed and other oils, polymerized?, is in my opinion a very good oil varnish even though it doesn't have a resin in it. It's my varnish of choice when I'm using oil(which is all I've used for the last dozen years or so). You can buy it at a gun store or at WalMart. It's about 5 bucks for a 2 oz bottle which is enough to do a bass.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Receipe for SEEDLAC varnish:

45 grams of seedlac finely ground and put into a nylon stocking. You won't need the whole stocking just cut off to just above a foot and put the seedlac into the stocking and tie off one end of it.

Get a jar like a Mason jar and put 180ml of alcohol in it.
Put the sock in the jar and screw the cap on tight.

Now shake the jar every chance you get over the next couple of days and bingo you have varnish.

If you are in a nice sunny climate put the jar out in the sun this will heat the mixture and "melt" the seedlac into the alcohol. If you are in a cold climate put it on the heat vent or on top of your radiator. You can even put it in a water bath and heat it on the stove, but let's not have any explosions ok?

Actually Martin, my mentor taught me an even easier method. I think I used to get Kusum Seedlac in 500gm containers. Just dump all the seedlac (sticks and all) in a empty gallon jug and add enough denatured alcohol to fill the jug about half way up and make a mark on the outside with a magic marker. Shake the jug vigorously occasionally for a few days and you have varnish. Ofcourse you want to let the seedlac sediment settle out before you use it. This varnish has a very thin consistency. If you want it thicker, just heat some of the varnish (in another container) enough to let some of the alcohol evaporate. Now here is the big difference. Just keep adding alcohol up to the line as you use it and shake it, My mentor, the late Earsel Atchley, used the same gallon jug for many years jug for years and just added a little more seedlac when the varnish started to get too thin. Careful measurement really isn't necessary since all you want is a saturated solution.

The down side of this varnish is that it required very skillful brushing since each coat dissolves the one under it. As long as you do just one stroke of the brush you are fine. Trying to brush over the wet area will result in removal of part of varnish applied previously. I have had success using a (Paasche) air brush instead of a brush.

Here is an other trick my mentor taught me about seedlac that I've never seen in any book. He called it "Cremona Lotion". Seedlac can be used to make a light yellow-orange ground for use under the seedlac alcohol varnish. The Seedlac becomes soluble in hot water if you add a little powdered borax to the solution. Just put a small handful of seedlac and about an ounce of borax into about a quart of water in a stainless steel or Pyrex glass pan and boil it for about 15 minutes. Do it outside because it really stinks while it is cooking. After it cools, filter the solution into glass container. It will keep for years in a sealed container. Brush or air-brush one or two coats of the ground on to the bare wood. After it dries, you can apply the alcohol seedlac varnish and very little will soak into the wood.

[Martin Sheridan]

Ground is a word used to describe what is put directly on the wood before the varnish is applied. There are many makers, varnishers, rersearchers et al who believe that this is the true secret of the Italian masters from 1550 to 1750.

In my time of making and varnishing instruments I can't begin to tell you how many formulas I've seen that claim to be the "secret" of the masters. I have tried them all or seen them used by friends and to this time have seen nothing that remotely resembles what I've seen on these old instruments.

Lately I've been using a straight Siam Seedlac as described above. I put on a thin coat let it dry and rub it out lightly with 220 grit wet and dry. The second coat can be put on after the rub out. I usually wait a couple of hours. This imparts a nice golden brown base to the instrument that I like and is easy to use. Bulls Eye Amber Shellac is so similar in color that I've also used it and believe it must be made from Siam Seedlac due to the color. Maybe I can get around to calling them someday and asking them about this product. They been making this product since 1849 and do a really good job of producing a shellac that's easy to use and is really clean, that is free of any foreign matter. I've never tried varnishing an instrument with it, but I don't see why it couldn't be used.It produces a "mid gloss sheen" by their own difinition so they might have an additive in it, because a good Seedlac will produce a very high shine.

Water glass and postassium silicate have been used as sealers, but personally I don't like either one of them. I have a friend who uses Min Wax Danish oil and swears by it. Linseed oil has been used but may be problematic when it comes to fixing cracks later on. Glue and oil don't like each other. I have also used Tru Oil as a sealer and it works well, but it will not impart color by itself. I've used Grumbacher Indian Yellow with a little TruOil to speed up the drying time and this gives a very nice yellow ground with just a hint of red. One coat applied with the hands or paper towel is sufficient.

When it comes to grounds it seems this is one area that makers experiment more than with any other. I've lost track of the one's I've tried.

Potassium dicromate is another product that I've used successfully but a lot of makers don't like it. Potassium Dicromate darkens the wood and makes it look old. This is desirable because when the instrumet gets scratched the wood underneath will be somewhat old looking and not white. If the wood is still white the scratch can be very unsightly. I think the key with this product is to put it on thin and get the instrument into the sun.The next important and critical step is to seal the wood again before the instrument gets to the color stage you want. This is the tricky part because it's a matter of experience and guess work. I like using a thin tung oil for this. The reason you want to do this before you've reached the color stage you want is that the oil will further darken the instrument a little bit and you don't want it too dark.
I used it on a viola once that I took out to the sun, the phone rang and I left the viola outside to answer the call. When I came back the instrument was almost black. If this should happen to you use a red varnish. Red helps to cover black, but it ain't a gonna be what you want. Although the dicromate makes the wood look aged, under the varnish it will produce a nice warm yellow ground look.
Some makers put on a thin coat of Knox gelatin before putting on the dicromate, and some use the gelatin before using any other sealer. The gleatin is a sealer itself, is clear and prevents the wood from getting a splotchy appearance from the "stain" that comes after. I must add that Potassium Dicromate is poisonous.
More later.

[Martin Sheridan]

Bob,
Have you got around to trying Fulton's Propolis ground? And can you describ the results?

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Bob,
Have you got around to trying Fulton's Propolis ground? And can you describ the results?

I have the Propolis ground made and stored in jars in the shop, but it seems like every time I get the urge to finish the bass that I want to use it on, I have to have some kind of surgery. I haven't been able to work in my shop since having hand surgery in early January and I probably won't be able to do any serious work in the shop again until summer or fall at the earliest. As a friend of mine once said - My "Golden Years" are Rusting!

BTW - have you ever tried Albumin?

[Martin Sheridan]

I used albumin once. I had seen a violin that somebody told me had an albumin ground and it looked great. I guess my results weren't as good as I haven't tried to repeat it. I'd rather eat eggs than put them on my bass.

Bob, get a brush. Put brush in mouth, dip in jar of propolis ground, brush on wood. Report back.

Good luck with the hand. I almost cut my little finger off a year ago and am just getting to where I can play again.

[mojoluthier]

Good stuff, thank you!

[B. Graham]

Great reading. Thank you.

I another thread I've being exposing myself as the bass refinishing hack that I am. I've been going the route of a Tru Oil coat or two as a sealer on a ply bass, stripped to the white. Then moving on to place a glaze color over the top of it with gel stain. The first pass might look ok, and then the second coat seems to slide right off and take some of the first coat with it, leaving a streaked ugly mess. All of the finish is stripped off again.

I like the Tru Oil medium, and the color of the gel I picked but I'm not getting the hang of this. I don't want a blonde bass and I'm tempted to apply some color right to the bare wood, and deal with evening it out with something else. Going from white, to dark reddish brown is tough.

[1st Bass]

Bill,
I have done glazing using varnish as a sealer, then a mixture of varnish, artists oils and linseed oil (just a few drops) for the glaze-- wiping it out extremely thin, and patting it smooth with my fingertips until there are no streaks at all.

Then allow that coat to completely dry, and seal it with another coat of varnish. If one glaze coat was enough, fine-- add your remaining varnish coats-- if you need more glaze, that is fine too.

I glazed the violin in the picture that way.

[B. Graham]

I think I've been letting the glaze dry sufficiently, but the other steps sound good. I also was not alternating layers of glaze and clear (still wanting to use Tru Oil).

Thanks for the tips. This is what I'm dealing with in the raw.

[Martin Sheridan]

Bill,
Don't use the gel stain for a glaze. I think some shops which are almost mass producing instruments have used the gels successfully. But they don't seem to be tough enough to stand up to wear although using the TruOil over them would help. Also I question their light fastness, or ability to withstand fading and their clarity. I tried them one time and wasn't impressed with the results I was getting.

Go to a good artist supply store and buy a few tubes of transparent and light fast pigments. It should say on the tube if it is transparent and what the light fastness is, if you're not sure ask someone knowledgeable at the store.

Seal the bass as you described. When it is completely dry you can put on the first coat of color. This is much more difficult to do on a bass than a violin due to the size of the surface area you have to cover. You have a couple of ways to do this. You can put a dab on your fingertip and then dap it in one area, I'd say about 4" by 6" although it depends on how much color you take out of the tube. Less is better or you can get streaking that can be hard to control. Rub the oil color in a circular pattern until you have spread it out pretty evenly and then rub it with the grain. Next move onto another area. Clean your hands up with Goop which is a soap sold at auto stores or use a brush cleaning "pink" soap, but the Goop works better but you are still going to have some color left in the pores of you skin which has a wonderful way of finding itself onto my shirts, pants, my wife's towels etc.

Another glazing method and much less messy is to put a dap on a soft paper towel, add to that one drop of TruOil to help speed up the drying, do the circle thing and then with the grain as I described before. Continue to work on small parts of the bass starting with the top or back until you have covered the whole area. Now you have a choice of stopping until this is completely dry or tuning the bass over and continuing on. You'll finish sooner if you just continue to go on, but you run some risk of touching wet parts and if you're not careful you're going to find a palm print or smudge on the work the next day.
On a good dry and warm day the color may dry in as little as twenty four hours. If you try to add a coat of TruOil on it before it's completely dry, you'll wipe the color off and ruin what you've done so far necessitating taking off all the color on that part of the instrument, so it's best to be patient. If you have a nice one of those lamps that mounts to the bench and can be raised and lowered, you can put it above the bass about a foot and it will really help speed up the drying time. Make sure the lamp is stable, you don't want the darn thing to drop down on the bass in the middle of the night and burn a hole in it, and maybe burn down your whole house. I know my wife would be mad at me if I did that.

I don't like doing the coat of clear in between color coats. Technically this is the correct way to glaze, but if you add a coat of clear oil it is going to pick up some dust(oil draws dust into it) and you'll have to sand it smooth. And here's the rub, (pun intended)...all you have to do is rub just a wee bit too hard and you'll go right through the coat of color in the place where you were rubbing and now you will either have to be a heck of a touch up artist, or you'll be stripping the bass again. Anyway, once you get the color on the instrument with the intensity you like and making sure it is very dry start adding your clear coats. Four or five ought to do it. With TruOil you can put it on with a brush, your hands, or a soft cloth or paper towel. I like to use my hands because it requires very little varnish since your hands don't absorb as much of the oil as a brush or cloth/paper towel. But that's a personal decision based on experience. Getting the drying oil off your hands is a good job for the Goop unless you like going around with sticky fingers.

Before adding the clear coat check carefully that the color is dry. You can lightly drag a finger over it, or better yet a folded soft paper towel. If it's not dry some is going to come off on the finger or towel, if only a tiny bit comes up you might go ahead and varnish, but it's better to wait a little longer.

What I like about the glazing method is that you can get such great color. I forgot to mention it before but you can mix these colors to get a different shade. However, there are many nice artist colors that work very well for musical instruments that you can use out of the tube. Another thing I like about the use of artist colors in glazing is that you can vary the intensity of the color as you are applying it. When I first started varnishing I tried to get the color completely consistent and homogenous. After seeing a lot of old instruments I realized that they rarely looked this way. Some of the shading came with age and wear, but I think a lot of them were never "new" looking to begin with. Also, if you like to antique and put a few dents and scratches in the instrument the color will fill into the dents and nicks quite nicely and add to the antique effect.

What I don't like about glazing is just what I mentioned before. If you cut through the top layers of varnish and pass through the color, it's going to look like hell, so be very careful. It is very difficult to rub out an oil varnished glazed instrument.

The glazing method was used by painters during the time of the great violin makers and they probably knew about it. I have had the great good fortune to have seen very many golden period instruments and my own opinion is that they did not use this method. I have only seen one violin, a Guarneri Del Gesu that looked like it might have been done this way.
I do think the Italians probably used the artists colors mixed with an oil varnish, but who knows? Fully 95 percent of the violins have had a coat or two of seedlac put on top of the original varnish and virtually all of them have been polished, spit on, touched up, you name it.

Someone mentioned earlier the difficulty of getting color into an oil varnsih. This is why I like glazing. You can put a lot of color into an oil varnish and still have to put 20 coats on to get hardly any color. Some makers like to glaze a coat on and then mix the color in the oil and do the final coats this way. That's an option.

I've had many players and makers compliment me on the look of my instruments and there is something to be said for having a "look" when you are trying to make a living with craft. However, I've never been completely satisfied with my work and I can tell you I've seen a lot of instruments that are better looking varnish wise than mine. Years ago a maker told me he thought it was more important to learn to work with a varnish you liked than what the varnish or varnish receipe was. At the time I thought he was just trying to keep from giving me his "secret", and maybe he was, but I have come to conclusion that he was right. There have been many successful varnishes and techniques over the years, but learning to varnish an instrument really well is a life long learning process.

[B. Graham]

First off, thanks for all of effort with writing such a detailed reply.

Secondly, Eureka! This is a great method!

I found some Burnt Sienna and have the body nearly glazed. It's so easy to put on and doesn't completely mask the figuring of the veneer. Burnt Sienna is more red/orange than I though it would be, but I hope to remedy that with another glaze coat of something more brown.

Thanks for the tip!

[Martin Sheridan]

I forgot to say that if you use a gel stain, I think it would be ok to use the clear gel over it. But unless there is something in the TruOil that is stripping the glaze, I would think that the glaze isn't completely dry.

Be sure your Burnt Sienna is transparent!

[Martin Sheridan]

I'd like to hear from some of the other professional makers their "secrets"; varnish formulas and grounds or other commercial varnishes and grounds.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

I'd like to hear from some of the other professional makers their "secrets"; varnish formulas and grounds or other commercial varnishes and grounds.

Hey Martin, I would be surprised if there is anyone here besides you and me who are stupid enough to make thier own varnish and grounds from scratch.