Velvet tailpiece cord - problems

Rebo213 · #1 03-14-2011, 05:21 AM

Hello,
I have changed the coarse tailpiece cord my bass had for a Velvet one. The tone changed to a more "open" one: more detailed but less bass, and "fundamental" note (I don´t know if you use that word in english though).
Also I lack tuning stability, it´s always flat from day to day, before the chage it was more stable. I changed it two or three months ago.
Other thing I notice it tends more to feedback with high volume than before, I always had to use the towel trick behind the tailpice when I play live.
Shall I come back to my old cord? Can be a bad setup problem? I think the cord now its 1-1.5 cm. longer, can have any influence in that problems?
Thank you,
Alberto

gaelmckeon · #2 03-14-2011, 12:33 PM

I think there are too many variables to properly answer your questions. The change in tailpiece length can alter the behavior of your bass. You might want to reassemble it with a shorter length, as the old one. Why did you switch? Also, the setup may have changed in the process. Soundpost still where it was? Bridge feet and angle? I'm of the opinion that as long as the tailpiece wire is flexible, it doesn't much matter what it's made of, but I could be wrong. Also, they stretch........ as you've discovered. I'm surprised that after three months it's still stretching though. Perhaps the knot is slipping? I actually hang from the wire before I install one on a bass, to get some of that stretch out. The strings are pulling at it with 200+ lbs of force. It will stretch at least an inch just from hanging on it ( I know, it looks silly). I hope this helps.

martinc · #3 03-14-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebo213

Hello,
I have changed the coarse tailpiece cord my bass had for a Velvet one. The tone changed to a more "open" one: more detailed but less bass, and "fundamental" note (I don´t know if you use that word in english though).
Also I lack tuning stability, it´s always flat from day to day, before the chage it was more stable. I changed it two or three months ago.
Other thing I notice it tends more to feedback with high volume than before, I always had to use the towel trick behind the tailpice when I play live.
Shall I come back to my old cord? Can be a bad setup problem? I think the cord now its 1-1.5 cm. longer, can have any influence in that problems?
Thank you,
Alberto

Alberto: Ditto on what Gael McKeon wrote.

I found that the Velvet and the Pecanic tailpiece cord were a bit too flexible...especially if the tailpiece is the Wittmer composite or made of light wood rather than ebony. The cord certainly opened up the sound of my bass but it also created too many vibrations and overtones.
I went back to the aircraft cable and found the solid sound returned and most of the vibrations disappeared.
I stuck a small piece of thick sponge between the bass top and where the aircraft cable crosses the saddle.....problem solved. No vibrations or overtones at all! It could mean my tailpiece is too light for my set up but I am very happy with the sound now. Maybe I will swap out the Wittmer for my old pearwood tailpiece sometime but for now I think I will stick with the old "if it ain't broke don't fix it" advice.

Rebo213 · #4 03-15-2011, 02:30 AM

Gael, Martin
Thanks for your answers. I changed it trying to achieve the "optimun sound", you know what I mean. My main concern its about the tuning stability, it can be due to the stretching of the cord, I waited a few weeks as advised in the instructions to let it stretch. I doubt between replacing the old one or shorten this one, but I have not many room to experiments time wise, because I have 1-2 gigs a week, a day job and only one bass.
One luthier friend of mine told me about install the same "button" which holds the cord in a violin, to separe it from the endpin. It allows you to try different endpins but also try different settings of the cord.
Anyway, I think I need another bass to experiment with.
Cheers!

Matt Medlock · #5 03-15-2011, 08:42 PM

A colleague of mine had the same issue with velvet. He went to a boat shop and got some Kevlar rope and that solved the stretching problem.

Nuno A. · #6 03-16-2011, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rebo213

Gael, Martin
Thanks for your answers. I changed it trying to achieve the "optimun sound", you know what I mean. My main concern its about the tuning stability, it can be due to the stretching of the cord, I waited a few weeks as advised in the instructions to let it stretch. I doubt between replacing the old one or shorten this one, but I have not many room to experiments time wise, because I have 1-2 gigs a week, a day job and only one bass.
One luthier friend of mine told me about install the same "button" which holds the cord in a violin, to separe it from the endpin. It allows you to try different endpins but also try different settings of the cord.
Anyway, I think I need another bass to experiment with.
Cheers!

Its normal that the tailpiece cord will take some time to stretch, usually a couple of weeks, maybe a bit more, after that it wont change under normal circunstances.. i have mine on my Kay for more than 10 years, i installed it in 2000 and its still ok, honestly i dont remember how long it took.... sometimes players come here with their basses to change the cord and play shows right after.. go figure. contact me at info@velvetstrings.com and i can send you a new one if you want.
regards

Nuno

Nuno

robobass · #7 03-16-2011, 01:53 PM

I had one installed on a 5-string and it was losing pitch over the first weeks. Then it started REALLY losing pitch! When we took it off we found that inside the wrapping were many super-fine synthetic strands which were gradually breaking at a point where there was a fairly sharp edge and 90° break angle on the tailpiece holes. Perhaps the trick is to make sure the cord doesn't travel over any hard edges?

gbaker · #8 03-16-2011, 03:30 PM

While vacationing, coincidentally, in Spain, I bough a meter of (Kevlar probably) marine chord at a marine store in Cartagena. They had about 10 spools of different diameters. I picked one about 3/16". I have had it on my two basses for two years with no problems and good results. After the first week the chord stopped stretching.

robobass · #9 03-18-2011, 01:32 AM

My impression is that the Velvet, though delicate, is less elastic than marine rope, making for a significant difference in sound. I haven't tried an A/B comparison. Flexibility seems desirable in a tailgut, but elasticity less so.

Rebo213 · #10 03-22-2011, 03:22 AM

Well, prob next week I will be able to take it off to shorten or replace the old one.
Thanks Nuno A. for the reply, I will contact you if there is any problem with the cord.
I bought that one second hand, but new (the seller told me), so I suppose can be a faulty product or (more likely) a bad installation. Anyway, it is no expensive at all so we can try it or leave it. The problem can become a disaster if the cord breaks, though.

apterchapter · #11 12-11-2011, 02:10 AM

I fitted a 'Velvet' cord 3 years ago. It broke in performance 2 weeks ago. It broke by the knot. No warning. Absolute disaster. Never again. Aircraft standard stainless steel cable only for me. I was not convinced of any sonic advantage with the Velvet cord and now I have returned to steel cable, I think I am getting more bell-type harmonics in the tone. I think the Velvet cord damped these down. Examining the broken so-called 'Velvet' cord, the core is white nylon and the black sheath is probably Dacron. It looks to me to be a bit of standard Yachting cord. Probably did have high tensile strength, but once the sheath had pulled apart, the white core pulled out through the knot. A complete rip-off for the money they ask, in my opinion. Emperor's new clothes. Hope this helps and warns off other potential buyers!

nputtick · #12 01-26-2012, 06:07 PM

Can someone describe or post a photo (or link) of the type of knot you use to tie a Kevlar rope tailpiece cord?

Thanks

timobee4 · #13 01-26-2012, 09:54 PM

I discovered these Velvet tail strings some years ago, had them on 3 basses without any problems and my friend has 4 basses with Velvets. After the initial stretching the sound becomes wide open and it did change the whole bass response from low to high range. I only trust my luthier to do the knot though although I think its just a simple knot commonly used in boating and fishing with the ends slightly burned with a lighter. I could never go back to the stainless steel rope.

nputtick · #14 01-27-2012, 02:04 AM

As usual, Google is our friend. It's a Carrick bend - shown here.
How to tie tailpiece knot animation
The advantage of a Carrick bend is that it places less strain and kinking on the underlying rope, as the load is shared over a larger area with a less acute bend - which is supposed to make failure at the knot less likely. Note I haven't tried this myself yet, just looking for the info. Note that the cord they describe seems to be Dyneema rather than Kevlar, both should be available from yacht chandlers, climbing stores, or power kite/kite surfing shops.