Warranty and repair question

Bass Customer · #1 12-19-2009, 09:01 PM

We recently purchased a new bass from Lemur Music and after two months a crack appeared on the lower rib. We attempted to communicate with Lemur about this situation and they failed to respond for two more months. Once they did respond, they suggested it must have been caused by a collision and asked us to have a luthier examine it. We took it to a luthier who noted that there were no signs of injury (varnish cracked, etc). Lemur still refused to acknowledge a defect in the wood and honor the warranty on materials. Instead Lemur then suggested it be cleated by drilling holes and using thread to pull cleats into support the crack. We contacted the bass professor at the local university and the best luthier in the region. They both stated that this technique was not advised. Our sense is that Lemur is avoiding taking warranty responsibility and is suggesting a cheap fix. Any advice on how we can proceed? We do not believe there was any collision or injury to the bass but how can this be acsertained?

Dan B · #2 12-19-2009, 09:08 PM

Lemur Music? Might want to talk to the Double Bass guys about that, judging from Lemur Music's website.

Sorry I can't help much.

darkstorm · #3 12-19-2009, 09:59 PM

Sorry to hear your running into zero warranty support from them. The luthiers you had examine it should be able to determine that it was caused by substandard materials used rather then by owner caused bang. Best you can do might be to spread the word about poor customer service and no interest in warranty support. If that hurts their bussiness then youve accomplished a worthwhile thing to prevent others from buying their stuff. Their suggesting a poor qaulity fix should also be mentioned in your spreading the word about their responce to a warranty issue. To further keep others from buying anything from them. Of course provide documentation of pro luthier statements about damage source and absurd fix suggestion.

MIKMAN · #4 12-19-2009, 11:43 PM

Which model from the Lemur product range did you bought? Is it one of their Chinese made carved models? In this case it would be possibly attributed to "green" tonewood, but nobody can be sure without an "autopsy". Your luthier can give you a solid estimation
about the possible cause of the crack.
BTW i forwarded your experience to one of my former students, who is considering to buy a "Laguna" carved DB and have it delivered in UK. Now he is reluctant a bit to buy from Lemur....
Mike

Eric Hochberg · #5 12-20-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass Customer

We do not believe there was any collision or injury to the bass but how can this be acsertained?

I don't know if it can be ascertained for sure one way or the other. Depending upon where it's been and who or what it's been around, something could have happened without your knowing it. Also, a dry environment can cause cracks. How has your humidity been?

I've done business with Lemur for many years, and while I've never bought an instrument from them, I find it very odd and out of character that they did not respond for two months regarding this problem. Did you call Jerry? And, who are you? This is your first post and it's anonymous with no info in your profile. Not to say your post isn't legitimate, but before others start trashing, or worrying about doing business with a company that's been around for a long time and has an excellent rep, to my mind anyway, please consider the source, an anonymous poster on the internet.

drurb · #6 12-20-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I don't know if it can be ascertained for sure one way or the other. Depending upon where it's been and who or what it's been around, something could have happened without your knowing it. Also, a dry environment can cause cracks. How has your humidity been?

I've done business with Lemur for many years, and while I've never bought an instrument from them, I find it very odd and out of character that they did not respond for two months regarding this problem. Did you call Jerry? And, who are you? This is your first post and it's anonymous with no info in your profile. Not to say your post isn't legitimate, but before others start trashing, or worrying about doing business with a company that's been around for a long time and has an excellent rep, to my mind anyway, please consider the source, an anonymous poster on the internet.

Thank goodness! A clear voice of reason. I am always a bit suspect when folks decide to air customer-service issues in our public forums. Indeed, this is wholly out-of-character given what I know about and my own experience with Lemur. No, I have never bought a bass from them.

Somewhat against my better judgment, I'll wade in a bit further. So, to the OP:

You say that Lemur refused to honor the warranty but "instead" suggested that it be repaired. Did they offer to pay for the repair? If so, what else is expected of them? Do you want a different type of repair? If so, what type was recommended by the luthier you visited? I'm no luthier but the suggested repair seems pretty common. I'm happy to be enlightened by the luthiers around here. Did Lemur offer to pay for the different type of repair? What, exactly, is it that you want? A new bass?

As far as advice, I suggest you work it out with Lemur. Look, you want something from them. Posting what you have here, which is essentially trashing them in public, is not going to help you get it. Just my $0.02.

jacochops · #7 12-20-2009, 10:02 AM

Yup...Jerry at Lemur, IME, has always been excellent in terms of support, and trying to do and make things right. Call him Monday, ask for Jerry, and I'm POSITIVE it'll all be sorted out. Lemur has an excellent reputation among bassists, and I'd be stunned if this didn't turn out for the best. Good luck. CALL JERRY!

BassicJerry · #8 12-21-2009, 08:56 PM

Hi, this is Jerry at Lemur. We're far from perfect, but not as bad we're being depicted here. First we were contacted about the crack on the lower bout rib and we were terrible about responding. One bad for Lemur Music. When the family finally reached me, I offered to have the bass repaired no matter what the cause. Here is a link to a picture of the crack sent by the owner.

(Scroll to the right)You see white wood because something pushed one side of the crack down, probably when the crack occurred. There is no open space between the two sides.

Then things became, well, interesting: they demanded a new bass. Since we're using TalkBass as a jury, how many of you think that a retailer should replace a bass for the crack you see, especially in view of the fact that it occurred two months after receipt? Would anyone even want to start over in this situation if you had a bass that sounded good, looked good, and you got a great deal?

I said no, this is a minor problem. Let's fix it during the Holiday break and move on. Then the Dad tried to educate himself on bass repair and insisted that the top come off to fix this crack. Again, I said no. Removing the top is far too invasive for such a minor problem. I however, insisted that we need to do more than just glue the crack, it should be cleated to ensure that the crack doesn't propagate. If clamps could be used, even custom-made clamps, to reach the area through the f-holes or endpin hole, I'd do that. But in the lower bout, I'd use thread cleats.

A tiny hole is drilled directly on the crack. For example, a standard #80 drill is .0135". That's thirteen and a half thousanths of an inch, hardly a gaping eyesore. Then a cleat with glue can be pulled in from behind. We use thread, others use wire. The thread is then cut flush after the glue dries, and voila! Invisible from three feet away.

Has anyone had this type of work done on their bass? Do you wish you'd had the top removed instead? (Please vote)

This drew a variety of comments related to penny pinching.

So yesterday, before this posting for what it's worth, I decided to throw in the towel. We at Lemur claim to have no dissatisfied customers. Even if it's not completely true, we try. I therefore sent an email to the family offering to buy the bass back for the price they paid. They deliver it, I buy it.

Lemur was unresponsive for weeks (the email with the picture is dated October 12). Then we tried to fix things up best we could. After a flood of vitreol and misundersatnding, I quit. Does anyone think we should do more? (please vote)

BassicJerry · #9 12-21-2009, 09:05 PM

http://shop5.mailordercentral.com/le...uctinfo/CRACK/

I can't make the image link work, so drop this into your browser.
JB

1st Bass · #10 12-21-2009, 10:29 PM

Sounds to me like a bona fide attempt at resolution.

And if I had a crack like that, I most likely would not remove the top, but the picture is not terribly clear, so I can't say for sure. I also can't tell how it happened, obviously, so I have no opinion about that.

I have used the thread cleats (I used monofilament), but I found myself too clumsy to use them effectively... I think the principle is probably sound, and I even have a neat little windlass to pull the cleat up tight against the inside. I am just not good enough at it to be comfortable with it.

Anyway...your last offer was the one after which peace should reign.

Just my two cents before taxes and depreciation

Nagrom · #11 12-21-2009, 11:08 PM

1. I don't know anything much about bass repair, but if I had a crack like that and was told "the top must come off" I think I would seek a second opinion.

2. Offering to re-purchase the bass is a kind and generous offer. It shows that the supplier realizes the value of his reputation. A supplier is not obliged to so this in any way.

3. Owner, if you like your bass and want to keep it then do so. I recently saw a very pretty bass in for repair at the store I was visiting- it had a crack 1/4" wide by a foot long. Nothing like yours.

4. I'm glad you guys are working this out.

Fletcher Lanning · #12 12-21-2009, 11:50 PM

Wouldn't it be nice if the satisfied customers went and ranted about the company as well as the people who have issues? To me, it just seems a little petty to post an anonymous paragraph railing a company while the issue is still in the process of being solved.

Brent Nussey · #13 12-21-2009, 11:59 PM

To the original poster, the method of pulling cleats through to repair the crack is the correct one, as long as it's done by a luthier who knows what he's doing. It was the method used when my bass got 2 parallel cracks down the ribs years ago. I didn't notice the moment it happened, but took it out of the case after taking a trip with it, and there they were. The repair is near invisible, and has held fine about 17 years now.

My bass is an Italian bass, made in 1892. I'm sure that if that procedure is good enough for my instrument, it will work for yours as well. As someone already mentioned, if a repairperson wants to take the top off for a crack like that, I would immediately question their judgement. Taking the top off is like open heart surgery. Basses break. Seams open. Varnish wears. Lots of stuff happens to them. It's just a part of owning the instrument. My point is that the dealer suggested the right way to repair that kind of problem. I don't know who these guys are who advised you against it, but they're wrong. Maybe the luthier sees a chance to make a pile of money removing the top. Maybe he doesn't have the skill or knowledge to do this kind of repair. Beats me. But it's a time-honored repair. If you would let us know where you are, maybe someone can suggest a luthier you could go to for a second opinion.

I understand you're suspicious, because the dealer didn't respond for so long. There's no excuse for that in my book. But he is absolutely suggesting a proper course of action for this kind of crack, and offering to pay for the repair. If you think that green wood caused the crack, then take him up on his offer to buy it back. But looking at the picture, that looks like the kind of crack that's caused by a good whack to the rib. Banging the rib into the corner of a desk, for example. If the original poster is the father of the bassist who's instrument this is, I'll just say that I put a dent in my father's car when I was in high school, and I swore up and down to him that I had no idea how it got there. Someone must have hit it in the parking lot... If I could have convinced him that new cars could get dents from defects in the workmanship, I would have tried. I don't mean this as an accusation, just I remember being a kid.....

Good luck,
Brent

PS - I have no relationship with Lemur, except I bought strings from them about 1990ish.

MIKMAN · #14 12-22-2009, 05:15 AM

I offered my $ 0.02 talking about "green" tonewood but obviously it's not the case. It seems to be a man made crack. A slow company response sometimes makes a client impatient, so the client's attitude has some justification. Nonetheless Lemur's offer
shows a company which respects its own brand name and its clients. Jerry surely knows how to protect his business and he acts accordingly, so he deserves a "thumbs up".
Mike

Brent Nussey · #15 12-22-2009, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flanning

To me, it just seems a little petty to post an anonymous paragraph railing a company while the issue is still in the process of being solved.

I don't know if I'd be that harsh. This looks to me like a parent who bought their child an expensive and unfamiliar instrument, something's gone wrong and they're trying to figure out what to do. Many of us here have lived most of our lives with the bass, but it's all new to them. They obviously don't have good information locally, and after their bad experience with no response for so long, don't trust the dealer. I think Bass Customer is just looking for some outside/further input. I think I might do the same, in their shoes. Some of the wording is maybe a little accusatory, but their frustration and anxiety levels must be pretty high over this.

Square Bear · #16 12-22-2009, 07:35 AM

i'd be surprised if bass customer shows up in this thread again. seems his style is to give half the story then duck and hide. fortunately, we can all see that jerry went above and beyond here... i was surprised when i first read this, seemed out of character to me too. and for what it's worth, i wouldn't think the top should need taken off for that repair. if a luthier tried to tell me that i'd definitely go for a second opinion.

drurb · #17 12-22-2009, 09:36 AM

Well, I must say that, given the information posted here, it seems that my suspicions were borne out. I suspected that the customer wanted a new bass (see post #6). From what I've read here, I'd say that's unreasonable. I'm no luthier but I have enough experience to know that Jerry's suggested cleat repair does seem to be the "standard of care" for such rib cracks. Those more knowledgeable than I have supported that view here.

So, I'll "vote" as Jerry asked. No, if it were my bass, I would NOT want the top pulled unless a reputable luthier explained why and convinced me that such an invasive procedure was the way to go. I can't imagine what that circumstance would be.

I think the offer to pay to have the crack repaired was quite reasonable. That said, if Bass Customer truly believed that the crack occurred on its own and as a result of some defect in materials or workmanship, I could understand his being squeamish about continuing on with the bass. It seems he was not squeamish because he was willing to accept a "top-off" repair! Jerry's offer to buy the bass back goes well beyond the call, IMO. So, as I see it, Bass Customer can have the bass repaired in a fashion that seems quite appropriate or return the bass and get his money back. Having both options qualifies as phenomenal customer service in my book. Kudos to Jerry and Lemur.

Seems the only misstep was Lemur's slow response and Jerry is owning that right up front. I hope this works out for the best. If anything, all of this has reinforced the positive manner in which I've viewed Lemur.

Jake deVilliers · #18 12-22-2009, 09:56 AM

Hmmm, interesting story. The displacement of the wood on both sides of the crack suggests impact to me but its hard to tell in that fuzzy photo. (Why is it that people think that a camera phone takes good pictures?) I wouldn't be removing the top to repair that minor injury, that's for sure.

It seems as though the OP got some lousy advice from the local luthier and the 'bass professor' and had unrealistic expectations based on that advice. Too bad we don't know where this took place...

You get my vote Jerry but - 60 days for a response?

Eric Hochberg · #19 12-22-2009, 11:21 AM

FWIW, I've had a few rib cracks over the years and all have held fine after repair, with no cleats or tops taken off. Aside from Lemur's lengthy response time, which really is an issue, I think they have gone over and beyond by offering to buy back the bass.

Bass Customer, if you're still here, cracks are part of life in the DB world. No, they are not a good thing but not fatal either. Sooner or later, moving wood with these dimensions will probably get a crack, or two, or three, either through physical abuse or environmental conditions, or poor construction (which I don't believe is the case here as I don't think it's part of Lemur's business plan). I admit that I'm always a bit gun shy when considering purchasing a new bass that hasn't broken in to its local environment yet, especially living here in the midwest with our extreme weather.

Rib crack anecdote: My friend's fairly new Gagnon bass, which he paid big bucks for, got tagged on the lower bout ribs and a crack developed all the way around, a big, gaping, hideous looking thing. The top came off for that one and all the ribs were then reinforced, as they were very thin. I'm sure the fact that it was built in the Philippines' climate didn't help it either coming to Chicago. He got off lightly with a repair bill of $2.5k or so. There was no offer by maker or seller to give him his money back or to pay for the repair, either.

IMO, if you like this bass, get it repaired and enjoy it. Please learn how to care for it, too.

longfinger · #20 12-22-2009, 12:01 PM

I am curious how stores like Jerry's and others deal with 'long distance Internet' customers.

It seems like this issue would have been a non-issue if the customer lived close by to Lemur's store. They'd just walk in the store, show the bass...

a crack
yep a crack
leave it here, we'll fix it, come back in a few days..
ok.

But when customers lives hundreds or thousands of km(miles) away what's the procedure..?

Do you guys propose...

a) Have the following luthier in your area fix the bass, he'll bill us directly, you don't have to deal with any payment.

b) have a local guy fix it, pay him, send us the bill. We approve the following luthiers in your area....

c) we're sending you a shipping container for the bass with return address. We'll handle shipping both ways, you just have to pack the bass in the container we're providing for you at the courier's depot closest to your house.

d) send us the bass, you pay for shipping one way (shipping non-refundable). We fix it and send it back to you at our charge.

other options?
What actually happens?