What`s the deal with tail pieces ?

[Istar]

Dear TB/DBers and luthiers,

2 days ago I went and visited my luthier with a problem of my wolf on the A harmonic. We tried different things to get rid or reduce it but to this point failed. (To anyone thinking of using a wolf tone eliminator :... Don`t.) After several hours of trying he had another obligation and had to go. So I left with the last experiment on my bass we tried. He put a new tail piece on my bass. He exchanged my normal hardwood one (no idea what kind of hardwood) with an Ebony tailpiece that I think is slightly heavier than my old one. The tailpiece wasn't only a different wood but also slightly larger which resulted in a shorter tailpiece length.

The problem now however is that I think the sound went south. hard to say exactly what is different , but it isn't for the better. My girlfriend (who hears my bass almost everyday) says it also lost it`s carrying ability and doesn't rattle everything like it used to. This effect is hardly noticeable from under my ear, it even seems like it has slightly more volume, but you can hear something is different.

Now I know it has been only 2 days and every change in setup should be given time so settle in, but it send me wondering what the deal is with tail pieces. What is there to consider.
After doing some searching I found out that lighter usually is better ? But I couldn't find out if this was also true for arco only users. And what is the deal with the Wittner tail piece. I know someone whose luthier installed that after a wolf problem and according to him it did wonders to his bass. But I read here that it usually is used only by jazzers ? Is there a special reason for this ?

If you all would enlighten me with you vast knowledge I`d be very grateful.

[GriffithLea]

Just because the wolf eliminator didn't help you, doesn't mean that they are worthless. They often do make a positive difference. There is a bit of art and science involved in placing them correctly - perhaps there wasn't enough of that in your case.

I do think that wolfiness has a lot to do with the tailpiece, particularly with regard to the string lengths below the bridge. These need to be "tuned". Also, a lot of folks have migrated to a compensated tailpiece, i.e. a tailpiece that staggers the below-bridge string lengths, presumably to minimize any undesirable resonances that lead to wolftones (wolves?) .

However, you should also consider that your bridge might now be in a different place than it was, and/or the below-bridge string lengths have changed (see above).

Welcome to the never-ending pursuit of trying to get the best sound from your bass.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by Istar

He put a new tail piece on my bass. He exchanged my normal hardwood one (no idea what kind of hardwood) with an Ebony tailpiece that I think is slightly heavier than my old one. The tailpiece wasn't only a different wood but also slightly larger which resulted in a shorter tailpiece length.

The problem now however is that I think the sound went south.

After doing some searching I found out that lighter usually is better ? But I couldn't find out if this was also true for arco only users. And what is the deal with the Wittner tail piece. I know someone whose luthier installed that after a wolf problem and according to him it did wonders to his bass. But I read here that it usually is used only by jazzers ? Is there a special reason for this ?

My 2 cents: Traeger's book, "Setup and Repair of DB for Optimum Sound" discusses adjustments to the tailpiece for jazz as well as arco players. Both players want the tailpiece to vibrate. A vibrating tailpiece creates volume. A lighter tailpiece will vibrate more, producing a louder sound, particularly if both the strings between bridge and tailpiece and the tailpiece wire/cord are the right length. The heavier the tailpiece, the more the vibrations of the instrument are dampened. A lighter tailpiece will also create a slightly brighter sound, while the heavier tailpiece creates a richer, deeper, darker tone. Your heavier tailpiece would vibrate less and tend toward a richer darker tone, and that might be what changed your sound.

By Wittner, do you mean the carbon fiber "Ultra"? I have one on one of my basses. It weighs about 5 oz., and replaced an ebony tailpiece of about 12.5 oz. After I put the Wittner on, the volume of the bass was increased very noticably. My sax and piano players heard me playing in another room and were surprized, coming over to where I was, to see I had no amp on and was just playing acoustically.

I also put a lighter tailpiece on my "gut" bass (actually, it has Animas on it now). It's a Mike Pecanic compensated tailpiece made of walnut. It is beautiful wood and I am very happy with the sound. About 6 oz., it replaced an ebony of 13 oz. I also lengthened the tailpiece cord and the whole setup vibrates very nicely. The increase in "voice" and volume of the instrument was immediate.

But the lighter tailpiece will probably not get rid of a wolftone. In fact, because it will increase the volume and responsiveness of the bass, it can make the wolftone more audible than before. The wolftone (if that is what you have) is a permanent feature of your instrument. You can do things to minimize it, e.g., "eliminators", but the wolftone is caused by the natural resonance in the wood. It can relate to the strings below the bridge, and if so then a compensated tailpiece might help.

I have a wolftone at about "G" in my Gruenert Jazzbass, and it howls out when I bow the A string at G. Less so on other strings. I had the sense it was because of the length of the A string below the bridge, and that made me want to get the compensated tailpiece, which changed the length of the strings below the bridge. However, the wolftone is not completely gone. I try not to bow that note on that string!

As for your other question: Do only jazzers want a lighter tailpiece? I think that is probably true. The lighter tailpiece increases volume but also brightness. The heavier tailpiece will dampen vibration (decrease volume) but gives a deeper tone. Jazzers want/need/like a slightly brighter punchier sound to cut through the mix, while orchestral/arco players prefer the "deeper darker richer" tones that the heavier tailpiece will produce but which bowing can bring out so well. Since you play arco only, maybe you might want to explore the effect a heavy compensated tailpiece might have on your bass...

Good luck with the wolf. It has been said that even the most high quality basses, cellos, or violins have a wolftone. Is that any consolation? You will need to experiment. It is going to be different on every bass. Cheers, Bill

[mahlerbass]

For what its worth, I used to have an Ebony tailpiece with one of those metal cables for a tailpiece wire on my newish Carved Bass. I had a terrible wolf tone on the low A and Bb (both E AND A strings)! I brought it to my luthier, and he replaced the old outfit with a plastic tailpiece and a regular coated wire, in addition to sanding my bridge(he thought it was too thick). After playing it, I observed that the wolf note moved to a G# way up in thumb position on the A string, and the resonance of the instrument improved significantly (I know this because my neighbors are now very aware that I play bass!)


EDIT: I noticed that you use Corelli strings...all I can say is that they gave me nothing but problems (wolf tones were even worse) when I used them. I switched to Heavy Gauge Heliocore Orchestral strings, and I noticed that the increase in tension "drove" my bass a hell of a lot more then corellis, and produced a powerful, "projectile" tone that I didn't know my bass had.

[Istar]

Thanks for the input so far. As far as the sound is concerned I’ve noticed that it is indeed stabilising. it’s much less bright then it was before. I’m curious how it will react in the next few days.

EDIT: I noticed that you use Corelli strings...all I can say is that they gave me nothing but problems (wolf tones were even worse) when I used them. I switched to Heavy Gauge Heliocore Orchestral strings, and I noticed that the increase in tension "drove" my bass a hell of a lot more then corellis, and produced a powerful, "projectile" tone that I didn't know my bass had.

Ooops , forgot to edit my profile. I’ve switched recently from correli`s to Thomastik Belcanto. certainly the best strings I’ve tried and played so far.

Just because the wolf eliminator didn't help you, doesn't mean that they are worthless. They often do make a positive difference. There is a bit of art and science involved in placing them correctly - perhaps there wasn't enough of that in your case.

I didn’t mean to say they are worthless just that in what I experienced wolf eliminators really dampen the sound of the bass. And I tried several different ones on different places together with my luthier. I might not know what I am doing, but he sure does.

Nevertheless there sure is room for such things but my experience had learned me that it’s better to just live with the wolf. Of all the places I’ve heard of the A harmonic sure is one of the least awful places it can be.
Although I am temped to try a lighter tail piece , if only to see how my bass will sound, so I can make a better decision on what to do and better steer the sound of my bass.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by Istar

Thanks for the input so far. As far as the sound is concerned I’ve noticed that it is indeed stabilising. it’s much less bright then it was before. I’m curious how it will react in the next few days.

I am also curious how it will sound over the next few days. If the new tailpiece is heavier, your sound would be darker and the bass would have less punch and less volume. From what your girlfriend says, there is apparently less volume now.

That was what your luthier was trying to do: Reduce the vibrations of the tailpiece so that you create less sound. The wood of your bass will resound less and the wolftone will howl less. This doesn't "fix" the wolftone. There is no "fix", only ways to keep it quiet. The wolf is still inherently there. You are trying to find a way to play the bass without getting the wolf resounding.

Is the wolftone quieter now or less prone to start howling?

In case anyone on TB is interested, there is a very good article on the web about the physics of wolftones, "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad Wolf?" and the link is here: http://www.violinviolacello.com/wolf.htm

Let me know how your bass is reacting...

Cheers, Bill

[Istar]

Actually it didn’t help at all. If anything the wolf is even more there than ever.
Personally I still liked my bass better before. My bass sounds a little like I have a mute on now all the time. Which can be nice sometimes but really leaves me wanting more punch.
Personally I don’t like the trade : less wolf means less everything. Especially if it didn’t make the wolf less.
Leaves me wondering.. what if more I want more everything... mmhhhhh

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by Istar

Personally I still liked my bass better before.

hmmm... I guess that says it all. If the old tailpiece sounded better, well, what're ya waitin' for? or maybe you want to experiment with something else...

[hdiddy]

Is it possible that your soundpost may have moved whilst switching tailpieces? Not likely, but I would imagine that might have a great effect as well if it did.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by mahlerbass

I had a terrible wolf tone on the low A and Bb (both E AND A strings)! [my luthier] replaced the old outfit with a plastic tailpiece and a regular coated wire, in addition to sanding my bridge (he thought it was too thick).... the wolf note moved to a G# way up in thumb position on the A string, and the resonance of the instrument improved significantly (I know this because my neighbors are now very aware that I play bass!)

Now THAT is a real success story. It just really shows how each bass is different and you need to work with it to figure out how to get it to sing. It's worth the time and effort to experiment with different tailpieces, etc., or making the bridge thinner, etc., and not just accepting that whatever tailpiece or bridge is on it when you buy the bass is the right one. I got new light tailpieces and synthetic tailpiece cords for both my basses, and it has made a difference for the better on both, generally, more sound and resonance.