What basic "luthery" do you perform yourselves?

[MrSidecar]

Hi,

just out of pure curiosity, I came to ask this question. Two recent events raised the question.

a) my beloved 1830ish flatback instrument developed a highly unnerving buzz that seemed to come from a loose back bar (lucky me, wasn´t the case, more on that maybe later), and I finally fixed the thing.

b) a colleague of mine is so frustrated by the (in his opinion) underachieving luthiers of our city, that he even learned to fix soundpost issues.

The only luthier I trust lives 7 hours from here. But he´s the kind of guy who says "Don´t sell a man a fish, teach him how to fish". So, in other words, rather helpful when it comes to instructing on basic tasks. Therefore, I always have done simple things myself, like glueing a seam (or a buzzing crack if it had been properly repaired before), retouching hardly visible varnish probs (like, on the ribs where you lay the instrument). Once I glued my fingerboard back on when it was loose about 2/3rds of the overall neck length. And I strongly advocate for doing things like this yourself, that is, get instruction on how to do it well, with the right materials (hide glue). Saves money, time, and nerves. And is fun.

But I think soundpost stuff, as well as fingerboard and bridge matters, are big boys´ game and I keep my hands off it. I don´t dare.

What´s your take on this? What should, in your opinion, every bassist be capable of himself? I´m obviously not referring to things on a scale of buying a totally beat-up bass and making it usable (even though that might be fun too).

Best,

the curious Sidecar

[MIKMAN]

My friend Sidecar

the situation in my country is even worst than yours, so i had to learn as mush as i could in DB lutherie. After many trials (and errors) today i'm capable to make and fit properly a soundpost, to fit a new bridge, to replace, fit and dress a new fingerboard, to glue a loose neck joint, a seam etc. Any job takes me a significant amount of my precious time but i haven't got any other solution since luthiers are a nonexistent species in Greece. The experience i had in violin lutherie and my engineering background helped me a lot, so today i rely on my modest skills.

Of course this doesn't makes me a luthier and i'm not Arnold or Jeff, but i'm not forced to visit Italy in order to fix any problem in my double basses. I have done it once in the past and it costed me a fortune.

IMHO a bassist must know how to glue a seam, how to place a fallen soundpost and how to place the bridge in its proper position. The rest are spesialized tasks and only a seasoned luthier can perform them. From your profile i can't deduct where you live but if you are in the States you can find the Champions' League of luthiers. The problem is huge for bassists in countries where the DB is not a common instrument.

My 1 cent....

Mike

[hdiddy]

So far I have:
* Set my own soundpost
* Changed the tailpiece/tailgut, put bridge back into place
* Replaced endpin
* finished a sloppy fingerboard dressing job by eliminating buzzes

Haven't had to glue any seams yet.

[JtheJazzMan]

• Cut a new bridge
• Cut a new soundpost
• Fingerboard plane
• Endpin repair
• Then cleaned the crap out of the bass with a vacuum

[arnoldschnitzer]

I perform a lot of unnecessary repairs because players fail to do two things: 1) keep the bridge and bridge top where it belongs (not doing so is the main reason bridges warp), and 2) change one string at a time, so the soundpost stays in position. A soundpost will often fall down even if it fits tightly, because spruce is springy, and will bounce back upward when all the string tension is removed (think diving board).

I hope this does not come off as cocky, but I have seen scores of "soundpost fittings" done by amateur luthiers, and I have yet to encounter one that really fits well. Properly fitting a soundpost in a bass is one of the harder tasks in luthiery. Fitting a post improperly into a carved-top bass can cause a serious dent, or even a crack. I totally understand when a player needs to do an emergency post installation (been there, done that), but please, unless you have the tools, lights, and experience, don't muck with your soundpost. I don't say this because I'm trying to protect some "secret sauce" whose recipe belongs only to luthiers. Folks who know me get that I am very open with sharing information. It's just that I've seen a lot of preventable damage done by guys who should have sought assistance. Peace...

[sjd007]

I have:

Filed my nut
Dressed my figerboard
sanded and re-finished my neck
chaged tailpiece wire
fitted bridge adjusters
adjusted bridge shape/curve
fitted bridge to bass
increased string spacing
soon to replace tuning machines

But would'd touch my soundpost. That's for the pro's.

[William Hoffman]

• fitted new sound post
• fitted new bridges
• fitted new endpin
• removed excess wood here and there, from nut, from FB
• installed new tailpieces and tailpiece gut

fitting a soundpost properly is, as noted by others including arnold, a very demanding job and takes a lot of time and patience, in addition to the necessary instruction, skill, care, lighting, and the correct tools, which are not easy to find or necessarily cheap. it's not your piece of cake... but it is very satisfying when you get it right and the sound of the bass just rings out as it should. so why did i, being a non-luthier, decide to fit my own sound post?

the nearest luthier i trust is 300 miles away. so to me it seems easy to say "don't do it, go to a luthier", and on some level that is absolutely correct, esp for major and internal repairs for which an experienced expert would be needed. but i don't know any luthier who could or would spend the kind of time i have on that soundpost at a reasonable price. then there are the issues of knowing my bass, it's sound, it's peculiarities, and caring about the finished result. one luthier cut a new sound post for the former owner when i bought the bass but he cut it too short, creating endless problems for me. i took it to another, who did not see it was too short. actually it was arnold over on another website who convinced me it had to be replaced (thanks aes!).

my point: it's not like just any luthier will do. and with all respect, going a luthier who ultimately didn't care about making the right fit is a worse risk than a careful, well-managed and informed do-it-yourself sound post fit. imho, if you take the time and care needed, it is possible for a non-luthier to fit a sound post.

[Will Yager]

Doing minor repairs and work on my own has always been something I have an interest in, but I honestly just don't know how to do much other than change strings. I wish there was a class one could take or something.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

For me, I have enough on my plate as a player just trying to improve (sometimes just maintain) my skills, so I try to spend my allotted bass time playing the bass. If I tried to learn basic luthiery skills, it would take away from my precious practice/playing time. Given this, I would no more expect any repair attempts I might try to really work than I would expect a luthier who spends most of his/her time honing their skills fixing basses to be able to step onto a stage and sound anywhere near as good as someone who spends most of their bass time practicing.

Given this, my list is very short. I can:

Adjust my bridge height
Change strings one at a time
Align my bridge so that it isn't tipping
Shim a nut that starts to buzz

I leave the rest to the pros, even though it's a 2 hour drive each way to get to the one I want to work on my bass.

[Cody Sisk]

I agree about soundpost adjustment. Getting it right in that sweet spot is one thing, but making sure that it's the proper cut is difficult. You want it just snug enough to hold itself up: not too loose to fall and too tight to cause damage. This takes some serious micro-carving to achieve even on something as big as a bass. Also you have to consider the angles at the top and bottom so that they meet the top and back perfectly. Even considering all those factors, you run the risk of cutting off too much wood. Then you've made yourself a nice stick to rob from and make crack cleats, you've gotta start with a new soundpost from scratch buddy.. I've cut plenty of soundposts and I still find myself starting over time to time..

Edit: Though I'm sure Arnold never makes that mistake.

[wineaux]

I have:

Changed strings (one at a time!)

Tuned.

I let the pros handle everything else!

[Damon Rondeau]

I've done all the things the others have listed and a bit more. I've actually re-set a neck, replaced a fingerboard and glued some seams.

I'm a woodworker with decades of experience, but I only had to mess with a soundpost once for me to realize what a high-skill job that is. For fear of screwing it up, it took hours and hours and hours and still likely wasn't anywhere near as well-fit as a real luthier could do in a fraction of the time. (Good thing it was a piece of crap instrument.) To set a bass soundpost well, I think, isn't just one of the toughest jobs in luthiery, it's one of the toughest in all woodworking. Arnold, you guys are the brain surgeons of woodworkers.

[bonaventura]

Originally Posted by MrSidecar

Hi,

just out of pure curiosity, I came to ask this question. Two recent events raised the question.

a) my beloved 1830ish flatback instrument developed a highly unnerving buzz that seemed to come from a loose back bar (lucky me, wasn´t the case, more on that maybe later), and I finally fixed the thing.

b) a colleague of mine is so frustrated by the (in his opinion) underachieving luthiers of our city, that he even learned to fix soundpost issues.

The only luthier I trust lives 7 hours from here. But he´s the kind of guy who says "Don´t sell a man a fish, teach him how to fish". So, in other words, rather helpful when it comes to instructing on basic tasks. Therefore, I always have done simple things myself, like glueing a seam (or a buzzing crack if it had been properly repaired before), retouching hardly visible varnish probs (like, on the ribs where you lay the instrument). Once I glued my fingerboard back on when it was loose about 2/3rds of the overall neck length. And I strongly advocate for doing things like this yourself, that is, get instruction on how to do it well, with the right materials (hide glue). Saves money, time, and nerves. And is fun.

But I think soundpost stuff, as well as fingerboard and bridge matters, are big boys´ game and I keep my hands off it. I don´t dare.

What´s your take on this? What should, in your opinion, every bassist be capable of himself? I´m obviously not referring to things on a scale of buying a totally beat-up bass and making it usable (even though that might be fun too).

Best,

the curious Sidecar

Dear curious Mr Sidecar

i am curious too. in your OP you recount two recent experiences and I wondered:

a) what was the buzz, in the end, when you found out what it was? (my interest is more than scholarly, i have a buzz too and cannot for the life of me figure it out...),

b) how is your friend's homemade sound post work? was he able to learn to fit or cut a sound post that works well?

btw, very good thread topic...

cheers

[james condino]

In a lot of ways, owning a double bass is a lot like owning an old volkswagon- if it hasn't broke down yet, you can pretty much bet that it will soon. I've owned many of both; I can't imagine owning an old vw without being comfortable troubleshooting and turning a wrench on a regular basis. While I agree with Arnold and most of the other posts on understanding your own limits and the potential of damaging your bass, there is also a lot of independence and life skills to be had from doing your own work on your bass. For many, their location pretty much makes it essential.

I'd guess that the majority of the luthiers started with the small things and gradually built up their skills. Some do it by trial and error, but there are also a lot of highly skilled luthiers that regularly offer very detailed instruction and training on their craft, ranging from small private sessions on a specific area to extended training on all aspects of building. (Will, if you are in eastern Tennessee, there is someone just up the hill in Asheville who can help you out....).

While all nice instruments are fragile, it is also surprising how much they'll take and how far you can go with an improvised repair. Here is a little read on how far I've been known to push it:

http://jazzmando.com/field_testing.shtml

For the price of one broken string, every bass player should have a copy of Chuck Traeger's book on setup and repair, but realize that reading a book on a lifetime of experience and techniques doesn't mean that you suddenly have a lifetime worth of skills.

j.

[Mike Goodbar]

Just as with my playing, I've learned to accept my limitations when it comes to my skill with tools and shaping wood. Anything over and above changing strings I leave to the luthier.

I've seen a the basses of a few students whose mom or dad were "handy" arrive at my studio with various attempts made at shaping bridges, patching cracks and even refinishing...convinced me even more strongly to leave it to the professionals.

[hdiddy]

IMO, trimming and fitting a brand new SP is a whole different story than putting an SP back into place after it fell down. I can prob guarantee I will **** it up if I tried to fit a new SP. Putting one back into place after it fell is a pain in the ass. I just put it back where the last luthier left it. Lots of checking and rechecking, and checking again with proper light and mirror. Sometimes I wish I had one of those endoscopy cameras so I can look at the fit close up inside the bass before and after tensioning the strings.

I wouldn't mind taking it to the luthier but I don't like any of the ones nearby.

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by DallasStrings

Though I'm sure Arnold never makes that mistake.

It takes me from 1 to 4 soundpost blanks to fit a new bass soundpost. When I make one a little too short, I throw it in the drawer and use it later on a bass that's not as deep. I try not to get myself too worked up about the amount of time it sometimes takes, and try to stay in a focused but relaxed state of mind. I'm working on a pamphlet, tentatively titled, "Zen and the Art of Soundpost Fitting".

Not!

[Mark Perna]

I've changed strings (one at a time as everyone says), I've filed nut and bridge slots for larger strings. I've adjusted bridges (height, angle and placement. I'm pretty comfortable doing most things that don't require cutting, scraping, gluing or messing with the soundpost (which covers JUST about everything other than what I named above). Those things I let Mike Shank do even though he is a 4 hour one way drive away.

mark

[jazzgeek79]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

It takes me from 1 to 4 soundpost blanks to fit a new bass soundpost. When I make one a little too short, I throw it in the drawer and use it later on a bass that's not as deep. I try not to get myself too worked up about the amount of time it sometimes takes, and try to stay in a focused but relaxed state of mind. I'm working on a pamphlet, tentatively titled, "Zen and the Art of Soundpost Fitting".

Not!

Thank you for your candor and honesty. I think the part about not getting to worked up about the time it takes would be good feed back in almost any thread on a number of topics. I think I can apply that to changing my strings, learning chord changes, mastering thumb position, dealing with band mates, .....

[William Hoffman]

at the risk of stepping on toes, the responses made here to the suggestion that a bassist might perform a repair or adjustment on the bass seem to include the following:

1. The "I don't want to that" response -- for example the bassist wants to spend the time playing not dabbling in some other art, or doesn't want to invest the time learning how to do the repair or adjustment. imo this is a valid and honest answer, you don't have to do it if you don't want to, Chris, more power to you as a bassist!

2. The "I can't do that" response -- the fitting of a sound post for example is supposed to be too hard to do, too complicated, too much expertise required, too... risky, and soon you become convinced you can't learn it because you've been told it's difficult and you end up not even trying it like there is some kind of tabu. imo this is not the most compelling reasoning...

3. The "I want to learn" response -- this obviously isn't for everybody, but for those who are curious and want to understand their bass better and like the satisfaction that comes with learning to do something, maybe not as well as a trusted luthier, but maybe and hopefully well enough. the trusted luthier is always there when you need help. my luthier encourages self-help if it is something i can learn to do.

just to see this in perspective, i noticed that among all the luthiers who respond, not one of them has said "you can't" do it (a "you can't" rant?), and in fact arnold never said you can't do it. he said he has seen a large number of poorly fit sound posts and unnecessary repairs resulting from unskilled bassists' diy repairs and adjustments. and he should see those! but there is the unknown number of diy jobs that are done well, where a luthier might not necessarily get involved, and luthiers don't see those.