What do ya think? Help luthiers!

[Marc Piane]

My backup bass was damaged. This is exactly why I have two basses. I am looking into insurance claims and such but it is weekend so it is tough to talk to a person. I'm also going to bring it to my luthier later this week but I was just wondering if there were any second opinions here. The bass is a early 90's Lewis on Sons ply bass, made in Germany and sold as the Hermann model. It has served me well for what it is but I'm curious if folks think it is worth fixing or not. Any suggestions/feedback would be great. Thanks in advance.

[Jake deVilliers]

Marc, that looks like a very straightforward repair. A nice clean break.
Glue, clamp, and a couple of dowels to belay any tendency to creep under tension.

Relax. Breathe.

Merry Christmas

[Marc Piane]

Thanks Jake. Luckily I am totally chill on this one. It is my B bass that I keep around for situations where abuse is possible. I hesitate to put it this way but I keep that bass around for exactly this reason. Just dealing with insurance companies and taking for estimates is the pain.

[jallenbass]

Find out how much your rate will increase if you have insurance pay for it. The one claim I made for a repair skyrocketed my premium.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Marc, that looks like a very straightforward repair. A nice clean break.
Glue, clamp, and a couple of dowels to belay any tendency to creep under tension.

Relax. Breathe.

Merry Christmas

I assume you meant to say - first remove the fingerboard, then...

[Mark Carlsen]

This is the ONLY time I use Epoxy.. if it needs to be permanent, then you make it permanent. We have eliminated removing the fingerboard, using pins, dowels, bolts, screws,etc. In 12 years and dozens of these repairs not one has come back to be re-repaired. Just keep the crack clean and get it to your Luthier ASAP so he can get it back together clean.. Most of the basses I have done have cracks that are not so fresh, this is a little harder to do, but I have managed to get them back pretty close and most of the time the bass sounds better that before. I have also had great success doing this in scroll break repairs...A lot of the work is the prep [ Not in this case ] Cleaning, taping up, cleaning squeeze out, etc. Good luck .

[Marc Piane]

What about a guesstimate on cost? I'd bet the rough value of the bass if full working order is $1500.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by fingers

What about a guesstimate on cost? I'd bet the rough value of the bass if full working order is $1500.

Mine has never fully come off, but I have the same break. I never paid much more than $100, though I first had it repaired where I bought the bass, and second where I send a ton of business so it may have been that I got a deal. Still, it is not as much as you would think.

[Mark Carlsen]

Originally Posted by fingers

What about a guesstimate on cost? I'd bet the rough value of the bass if full working order is $1500.

As fresh as this break is it could be as little as $200.00 in my shop, but I like to have the clients consent to charge by the hour...

[Jake deVilliers]

Two hundred bucks sounds about right, though I personally wouldn't give you a firm quote from a photo.

And Bob, I'd drill both directions from the break and leave the board alone for the dowels/locating pins. I hate the basses that I see with all manner of hardware stuck through holes in the fingerboard - its so unnecessary..........

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

And Bob, I'd drill both directions from the break and leave the board alone for the dowels/locating pins. I hate the basses that I see with all manner of hardware stuck through holes in the fingerboard - its so unnecessary..........

So you were not kidding when you said you use dowels to prevent creep? I don't trust glue alone (not even epoxy) in this location. I usually remove the fingerboard, glue the break and then glue in one 3/4" diameter maple dowel about 3 times as long as the distance from the break to the fingerboard gluing surface for some extra strength. I use a radial drill press to keep the drill hole straight and at the angle I want. The only failure I've had was when the bass got run over by a truck.

BTW - I've noticed that some of the school grade Korean basses come with a dowel in the heel from the factory. That doesn't speak too highly for the quality of the wood they use for the necks.

[Jake deVilliers]

Yes, dowels. I've had quite a few basses through the shop that were repaired with one big dowel. Some of these were in because the joint had become loose and was rotating on that single dowel. So I've gone to two smaller ones to prevent that.

Maybe even better would be a square reinforcement; big gluing surface, anti-rotational, but it would take a lot longer to make the mortise!

I only use epoxy if the joint is already contaminated and I can't clean it completely. Too elastic...

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

Yes, dowels. I've had quite a few basses through the shop that were repaired with one big dowel. Some of these were in because the joint had become loose and was rotating on that single dowel. So I've gone to two smaller ones to prevent that.

Maybe even better would be a square reinforcement; big gluing surface, anti-rotational, but it would take a lot longer to make the mortise!

I only use epoxy if the joint is already contaminated and I can't clean it completely. Too elastic...

If the dowel joint was loose and the neck rotating, then the guy who put them in didn't know what he was doing. Sounds like either the hole was not properly matched to the dowel size or the dowel was glue starved. Hardware store dowels are notorious for being badly sized. I always deeply score the dowels from end to end before gluing them in. Unless you use a drill press, the hole is not going to be truely round and straight and getting a good fit for the dowel is next to impossible. I don't see how any dowel that is small enough to flex in your hands is not going to add any real strength to the neck repair joint.

I couldn't agree more about a square mortise being superior to a round dowel. I've been looking for years for a mortising machine and chisels that are big enough and long enough for a bass. All of the ones commercially available are just not practical for doublebasses.

I also agree with you about epoxy. I look at it as a last resort when nothing else will hold (i.e. previous repair with questionable glues).

[arnoldschnitzer]

Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter

I also agree with you about epoxy. I look at it as a last resort when nothing else will hold (i.e. previous repair with questionable glues).

West System epoxy was developed to hold together lightweight ocean racing boats upon which the sailors' lives depend. It is incredibly strong, impervious to moisture, does not creep, and hardens like stone. No elasticity in that stuff. Most people think of epoxy as the stuff you buy in a hardware store or Home Depot, which is mostly crap. Professional-grade epoxies are way different. I know it is unorthodox and frowned upon to use such adhesives in instrument work, but for a permanent repair like the one shown above, I think it is superior. It will never break again in the same place, nor will it rotate, creep, or open up. I'm with Mark C. on this one.

[Bob Branstetter]

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

West System epoxy was developed to hold together lightweight ocean racing boats upon which the sailors' lives depend. It is incredibly strong, impervious to moisture, does not creep, and hardens like stone. No elasticity in that stuff. Most people think of epoxy as the stuff you buy in a hardware store or Home Depot, which is mostly crap. Professional-grade epoxies are way different. I know it is unorthodox and frowned upon to use such adhesives in instrument work, but for a permanent repair like the one shown above, I think it is superior. It will never break again in the same place, nor will it rotate, creep, or open up. I'm with Mark C. on this one.

I use the West System when I do use epoxy, but unlike Arnold and Mark, I have seen epoxy failures come into my shop and would not use it without some reinforcement in a location with that much stress. YMMV

[Eric Swanson]

Don't know nothing about bass repair, but know a little bit about a little bit of woodworking. Some samples:

www.swanson-woodwork.com

Lots of years/hours spent with West System (including a couple of desparate clambakes with glue starved joints and huge batches that didn't seem to be curing, ever). A couple of notes that could be helpful, offered humbly, as a woodworker. Success is in the details. A little knowledge is dangerous with West.

1) I agree with Arnold; West System is strong enough for ANYTHING and will not creep. He didn't say it, but a long-grain glue joint may actually be weakened by introducing some other element (dowel, square tenon, photograph of ham sandwich, whatever ). Epoxy can be brittle, though, if used alone. Using a thickening powder helps to eliminate this defect and also cures the evil of starved joinery. If the joint is glued properly, a long-grain glue joint is stronger than the surrounding wood.

There are hundreds of types of epoxies. The general rule of thumb is that there is an inverse relationship between hardness and curing time. West System takes at least 8 hours to cure (I wouldn't stress it for a couple of days, though, if practical). It is wicked strong (as we say in the Northeast).

2) Some folks don't realize that you can clean up most epoxy with good ol' kitchen vinegar (yes, white or red). Less nasty/toxic than the denatured alcohol we all used to use.

3) Straight West System, without any additive powder is TOO THIN for joinery...it is meant only to be used for finishing or fiberglassing purposes in this state (call the manufacturer if/when you don't believe me). We need to use a LITTLE thickener to make the glue line stay thick enough to work, epecially in maple, a wood whose cells structure and hardness can easily exacerbate a glue-starved condition. The glue you use in the joint should be thickened sort of like pea soup/thin pancake batter (a little flour actually works just as well as the fancy additives West System sells). This will keep the joint from getting glue starved.

In maple, especially, using straight West System could cause glue starvation problems...the viscosity is just so low and the material is so hard, that when clamped, there isn't much glue left in the joint. I have lived this nightmare with some maple countertops that all had to be reworked. You actually want a good, healthy glue line, for strength, with West. AFTER I had the trouble, I called West and they told me all that I am writing here...(d'oh!).

4) Mix the batch and chill the glue, to gain working time. Size the joint with STRAIGHT West. Have already mixed a coupe of pinches (not too much!) thickener into the rest of the batch of glue. Apply.

5) The reaction is exothermic. Once the 2 parts are combined, it is starting to create heat, which will subsequently speed the cure. The whole thing can accelerate geometrically in an unwelcome (read: hairy) way. Keep batches small, spread out horizontally (wider puddles rather than taller cylinders of glue), don't use metal containers for mixing, and stay away from warmth to gain working time.

6) More toxic than you can imagine. Don't breathe the fumes and don't breathe any sanding dust (if ever fairing/shaping/sanding the stuff). Smart folks wear respirators. If you use the West System powders (Colloidal Silica for flow and Microballoons for thickener, instead of my Yankee flour trick, wear a paper mask. Rubber gloves, you bet! Seriously. Getting it all over you is not good.

6) Mix accurately and stir, stir, stir. West recommends a minute of mixing, I believe.

If you haven't used West, call the manufacturer (Gougeon Brothers). They are insanely helpful. Its not hard, but it is specific.

Of, if one is too shy to call, here is a starter link:

http://www.westsystem.com/webpages/userinfo/manual/

[Darren Molnar]

That's an excellent post Eric, thanks for sharing. I've been looking into the west system for some carbon fiber experiments They seem like the people to talk to. And the vinegar tip alone will surely come in handy.

[Eric Swanson]

Darren,

One of my brothers (another materials/process junkie) has been doing carbon fiber/epoxy bicycle frames in the past few years. Yeah, its strong! He has actually moved to another brand for his demented purposes. I'll ask him which it is, and why...

E

[Darren Molnar]

That's awesome eric, thanks Eric. I'd appreciate that. I'd like to bend you're brothers ear a bit after the holidays.

[Bob Branstetter]

Luthiers will argue over the merits of different adhesives and repair methods, but for the customer it all comes down knowing that the luthier will stand behind his or her work. I'm sure that Arnold, Mark, Jake and most of the other professional luthiers will be there to stand behind their work in the event of a failure. If a luthier trusts an adhesive without any reinforcement and will guarantee his work, then it really doesn't matter if he uses hide, epoxy or flour paste to hold it together.