wires instead of tailpiece

[Dr Rod]

I agree, aesthetics are a concern, that's why I was hoping for somebody to come up with a commercial version with a bit of a facelift.

[16fuss]

+1!!!
did you try these velvet shoestrings-just black and easy to make a good looking knot.

clemens(danke für die post-anteort kommt)

[ToR-Tu-Ra]

So maybe a tailpiece like the one on them old hollow-body Gibson guitars could do the trick and be aesthetic?

[Freddels]

I guess you could always cut a regular tailpiece into four sections and make sure there's enough room b/w them so that they don't touch. (Just thinking out loud).

[travatron4000]

What if you sort of macramed a talipeice out of leather, hemp, or a synthetic like nylon? It would be very pleasing visually and more flexible than wood. Or if you used a strip of strong fabric (Kevlar, Nylon, etc.) cut into a more traditional tailpeice like shape. Metal fasteners could be stitched in for the string and endpin connections. I think the aesthetic short fall could be easly overcome if one just tried.

[Brent Norton]

As far as making a better-looking version, Kevin Marvin already has it figured out. Somewhat industrial-looking, but not bad-looking in the least.

As far as a fabric or cloth (or even why I prefer flexible steel cable over the hi-tech cords), is that while fabrics and non-metallic fibers may be more flexible, they also more readily absorb vibration, at least when in a more relaxed condition. Can I prove that in our bass context? No, not really - just call it a hunch.

Regarding the concept of a trapeze-style bass tailpiece modelled after old non-tremelo archtop TPs, we're putting one together at the moment. The customer was looking for something a little different in the TP department, and this is what we settled on. The nice thing is that we'll be able to see what kind of difference (if any) this makes over the traditional tailpiece the bass is currently wearing.

[Doug Ring]

Mmm, interested to hear those results, Brent.

[mje]

Originally Posted by Brent Norton

As far as a fabric or cloth (or even why I prefer flrxible steel cable over the hi-tech cords), is that while fabrics and non-metallic fibers may be more flexible, they also more readily absorb vibration, at least when in a more relaxed condition. Can I prove that in our bass context? No, not really - just call it a hunch.

What are those synthetic cords made of? Does anyone make a Kevlar cord? That would be far less elastic than steel, and absorb much less energy. (When aramid fiber bowstrings were first made for archery, suddenly a lot of bows started breaking as the strings weren't absorbing energy the way the old dacron strings did).

[Brent Norton]

The synthetic cords I'm referring to are made out of polyester or polyethylene. There are other synthetics (e.g. Velvet's cord), the makeup of which I haven't a clue.

[Justin K-ski]

Count me intrested in this tailpiece. I saw Al Lazlo with this setup over the summer and one of his students explained it to me, it sounds very intresting.

What about warpping the wires with something like leather or another cloth?

How does one use a mute with this kind of tailpiece? The regular tourte would get stuck.

Do any luthiers in NYC or close to NY/metro NJ install these tailpieces? How much does it cost? How pissed do you guys this Levinson would be if I showed up with a wire tailpiece?

[Cambass123]

Originally Posted by Justin K-ski

Count me intrested in this tailpiece. I saw Al Lazlo with this setup over the summer and one of his students explained it to me, it sounds very intresting.

What about warpping the wires with something like leather or another cloth?

How does one use a mute with this kind of tailpiece? The regular tourte would get stuck.

Do any luthiers in NYC or close to NY/metro NJ install these tailpieces? How much does it cost? How pissed do you guys this Levinson would be if I showed up with a wire tailpiece?

I am one of Laszlo's students...and I personally have added the "wires" to my bass....let me tell you....the difference is HUGE!!

I actually installed the wires myself....it costed me about $6.00 from Home Depot and took me about an hour to install. As far as Levinson is concerned....I am very curious how he reacts see I will be playing at the Double Bass Symposium with Levinson...from what I understand he is good friends with Laszlo. I am really anxious to see his reaction to the "wires"

[mje]

Originally Posted by Brent Norton

The synthetic cords I'm referring to are made out of polyester or polyethylene. There are other synthetics (e.g. Velvet's cord), the makeup of which I haven't a clue.

I looked up the tensile strength and Young's Modulus (stiffness) for some materials in question and found this:

tensile strength/stiffness or E

Graphite 170,000/12,900,000
Spectra 168,000/9,400,000
Titanium 150,000/17,500,000
Kevlar 90,000/3,200,000
Steel 60,000/30,000,000

(Spectra is a high-strength polyethelyne)

Steel is definitely the winner when it comes to stiffness, at a small cost of weight- for a given strength you need almost 3x as much steel as graphite. Titanium cable looks like an interesting possibility, but it's not a terribly common product. At least, I've never seen it except for very small cable meant for medical implants.

(BTW, 1/8" steel cable can be had with a tested tensile strength of 1,700lbs. That's plenty of safety margin, and a lot smaller than I've typically seen on basses. The 13 gauge soft iron coat hanger wire often used has a tensile strength of 30-50 Kg/mm^2, for a total stength of between 500 and 800kg, but it's rarely of uniform quality, corrodes easily, and usually fails at a much lower tension.)

[Justin K-ski]

Originally Posted by Cambass123

I am one of Laszlo's students...and I personally have added the "wires" to my bass....let me tell you....the difference is HUGE!!

I actually installed the wires myself....it costed me about $6.00 from Home Depot and took me about an hour to install. As far as Levinson is concerned....I am very curious how he reacts see I will be playing at the Double Bass Symposium with Levinson...from what I understand he is good friends with Laszlo. I am really anxious to see his reaction to the "wires"

How did you conncect the srting to the ends of the wires? I don't know if I could do it myself though, my sound posty might fall.

Laszlo was a student od Levinson's in aspen while he was studying with Mensch at Juilliard. Let me know how Levinson reacts, hopefully he'll say something funny.

[Dr Rod]

How did I conncect the srting to the ends of the wires? I used knots.

When you loosen all the strings there is always the danger of the soundpost falling, but if you keep the bass horizontal, and the sound post is not abnormally short, and you don't shake the instrument, you should be OK 80 % of the time (from my own experience).

Do you have a buddy that knows how to set a post ? It's not a bad skill to practice, very useful. A soundpost setter is a very good tool to have too

Off-topic Tip: tie a thread to the soundpost BEFORE loosening the strings, and keep the end outside of the bass, that way if it falls you can retrieve the soundpost by just pulling the thread, you won't have to shake the bass in the air. This will also give you the freedom to try different spots for the soundpost, and if it falls, no big deal. When you find the right spot just drop the thread inside the bass, it will be ready for you the next time.

[xeno]

what about a four strand braid of steel cable with a spreader bar?

something like this...



please excuse the quick photoshop.

[Brent Norton]

The "trapeze" tailpiece I had mentioned earlier is finished and installed with loop-end strings:



Regretfully, since many other variables on the bass had been changed since the bass sported a "traditional" tailpiece in the white, and since this bass was on deadline for tour, I wasn't able to A-B the trapeze with the stocker piece after finishing and all the other mods. We plan on doing this again, though, and will be able to take the time to compare, leaving all else equal.

[hdiddy]

I just revisited this thread and missed Brent's post. Brent - you ran the cable through the table and back out again into a jack? I wouldn't do that to my bass but it looks really cool! No messy cables. I'd save that idea for the Les Paul bass too.

[Brent Norton]

Actually, there's more than meets the eye here... The customer runs a K&K Rockabilly system with the preamp. The leads from both the Bass Max portion and fingerboard transucer go through holes in the top to the preamp inside the bass. That runs to a wireless transmitter, also inside the bass, making the bass totally wireless - at least in terms of instrument cable(s) running back to the amp from the bass. The jack you see behind the tailpiece is a failsafe should something go wrong with the pre, the wireless transmitter or both; it's a stereo jack you can send back to a 2-channel preamp or amp to mix the two element signals. If only a single channel is available, the amp will get the Bass Max signal.

[Dr Rod]

I tried the trapeze TP way back, and I found it very wolfy on my instrument. The sonic result in general was not as good as expected. The individual wires were far better/louder/warmer/etc...

Perhaps, and only perhaps, it is due to the fact that the strings are allowed some kind of independence in their vibrations.

I havent tried the braided idea but I suspect the same.

[jb6884]

Wow I'd hate for the tailgut to snap and have that trapeze-a-ma-jig flying at me.