wooden endpins

[RCWilliams]

I am curious what the general consensus is on wooden end pins. I recently made an auxillery block to allow the installation of a Laborie end pin with out drilling the second angled end pin hole in the lower block of the bass, primarrily because of the number of lower blocks we were seeing damaged because of the stress caused by cantaleivering of the pin in use.

that led to turning some wooden end pins, and then an end button with a tapered socket to recieve the wooden end pin.

I thought you might let me know about the general intrest level in such a thing

[Silversorcerer]

So what do we do? Order a wooden pin with a custom length? Now that would be cool.

[quenoil]

This post implies that there are many people wih damage to the block caused by the laborie endpin. I've never heard of anyone having such a problem. You need to be clear with your claims about this, especially when you're mentioning a product of your own meant to deal with such an issue.

[labravajazz]

Well I for one am interested in trying a wooden endpin on my old English bass if for no other reason than that they originally had wooden pins and I want to know what it is like to use a wooden one. So not necessarily wanting to do the angled pin though that is interesting as well as long as one can try it without major operations to the bass. My main interest is just getting a nice pin and some good way of attaching it with minimum weight and hassle .... so reading any ideas here with interest>>>>

[Matthew Tucker]

David, I suppose you've tried the hickory drumstick in your endpin hole already? However, your endpin socket would need to be the 5/8"/16mm kind not the notched kind. That would probably be the simplest way to try it without drilling into your bass. If you like the result you could have some custom pins turned to the length you like.

[RCWilliams]

Originally Posted by quenoil

This post implies that there are many people wih damage to the block caused by the laborie endpin. I've never heard of anyone having such a problem. You need to be clear with your claims about this, especially when you're mentioning a product of your own meant to deal with such an issue.

the damage I refer to most commonly occours in chinese basses, some times the block wood in those is a bit pithy. Personally I prefer not to drill any unneccesssary holes in any instrument, but that's up to the individual. we have a growing number of students useing the laborie end pin. George Vance and Christien Laborie both saw the device at isb and thought it a reasonable responce to the problem which has been observed by Dr. Vance as well.

all I am trying to do is determin the level of interest in wooden end pins, you, the bass players are the ones that drive the market. there are those of you who think that they are great there those who could care less. those who would like to see new things on the market, or old things revisited, should say so so those of us in a position to do something about it to one degree or another know what you are interested in.

Silversorcerer:
what I imagin I would be inclined to do is make size ranges available that could be cut to lenth. so yes you have an end pin for each pair of shoes you own... ok mabey not.

I'm still in the early stages with this one but I'll be interested in hearing what you think.

[Silversorcerer]

Well I like an adjustable pin for a while. Then after I know where it needs to go, that is where it always goes. Over the past couple of years with my new DB, I've moved the pin in and out as much as 2 inches and I finally settled on right in the middle. So at this point a nice wooden pin of just the right length (most of my shoes don't vary much) that fits right in and doesn't rattle easily and looks good works. A spare or two varing about a half inch in each direction would cover future adjustments or different shoes.

I've not tried the drumstick thing. That idea didn't appeal to me because I just thought it was clumsy compared to a nicely built end pin. I like a notched one, so when it is screwed tight, it is not going to slide. I could just see the stick getting loose and slipping. I don't know if my socket is the right size or not and I tend not to mess with things that are working. Right now the steel pin is working (once in a while it rattles if I really hit the right note hard), but it still occurred to me a couple of days ago that I have a nice piece of ash that could be carved down to fit the socket I have and leave a lip for the socket edge to stop at. I'd consider a good wooden pin a worthwhile upgrade. The bass bag I use works better with the pin removed, so the pin still needs to be easily removable.

It might be a two piece design. A socket with a tapered hole and a pin with a top tapered to match the socket hole. So it just fits in there with a twist and has some locking screw to keep it from falling out.

[oldbass]

There seems to be significant interest in wooden endpins and the Traeger book certainly is positive on them. Given that most players interested currently have metal rod endpins and the associated hardware that goes with them some major part replacement is required to see if the wood endpin will make a difference. As an alternative, what about a wooden endpin with a short metal rod, the same diameter as the existing rod, for insertion into the existing plug and securing with the thumbscrew. The metal rod would be epoxied into an axial hole maybe 2 to 3 inches long in the upper end of the wooden end pin and extend a couple inches only for insertion into the plug socket. The wood pin would be large enough in diameter to shoulder up against the endpin plug and support the weight of the bass. The thumbscrew works against a metal surface as before, will not chew into anything, and basically is only needed to keep the endpin from falling out. Much of the sound or vibration transmission would be through the shoulder contact area and not just the metal pin contact. The overall endpin response would be in the length of wood which seems to be what the objective is. Has this ever been tried?

[Johnny L]

I've wondered about a wooden endpin design that could be made adjustable...sort of like a bridge adjuster design or maybe even just a two-piece design where one screws into the other...or a pin to slip through holes to lock the pieces together or whatever.

This way, you don't have to exclude those interested but want some flexibility in endpin length. To me, convenient length adjustment shys bassists away from wood endpins more than any other concern.

Paul Ellison was using a wooden endpin on his bass when I saw him in a class last year, and he seemed very pleased with it as well as the bent-endpin concept in general (no surprise).

[RCWilliams]

I have made one with a furrel on top and am planning to install a 10mm carbon fiber rod to do exactly what you are talking about. the test peice should be shipped early to mid week and I'll get feed back from the test pilot. the pin will sit right on the bottom of the taper so the purpose of the shaft is only to lock it in place. if the results are posative IO'll let you know. if the carbon fiber doesn't work, I'll try steel next.

[RCWilliams]

my first reply was to "old bass". Johnny L perhaps if the rod is a bit longer spacer rings could be used to adjust height. but every thing that is the least bit loose is a potential rattle. one of the things commonly done is to cut the top of the end pin shaft off so it doesn't project into the body of the bass, for this reason, I thought it would be best if the shaft to connect the end pin to the taper should be as short as possible.

[dkpawlowski]

Originally Posted by oldbass

There seems to be significant interest in wooden endpins and the Traeger book certainly is positive on them. Given that most players interested currently have metal rod endpins and the associated hardware that goes with them some major part replacement is required to see if the wood endpin will make a difference. As an alternative, what about a wooden endpin with a short metal rod, the same diameter as the existing rod, for insertion into the existing plug and securing with the thumbscrew. The metal rod would be epoxied into an axial hole maybe 2 to 3 inches long in the upper end of the wooden end pin and extend a couple inches only for insertion into the plug socket. The wood pin would be large enough in diameter to shoulder up against the endpin plug and support the weight of the bass. The thumbscrew works against a metal surface as before, will not chew into anything, and basically is only needed to keep the endpin from falling out. Much of the sound or vibration transmission would be through the shoulder contact area and not just the metal pin contact. The overall endpin response would be in the length of wood which seems to be what the objective is. Has this ever been tried?

I did this exact thing with the endpin on a Knilling carved bass. Was a definite improvement over the stock steel endpin.

[Ashley Long]

My baroque bass has a wooden end-pin, as does one of the violone that I play (the other has not end-pin at all). Having a wooden end-pin allows the virbrations to travel in a more natural way as its the same material as the bass body and therefore resonates more easily. However, if one moves (dances) considerably when playing, I would be dubious of the tensile strength of wood against metal even with the thickness of a wooden pin. .

[Silversorcerer]

Cool! This is shaping up nicely.

[RCWilliams]

yes the laborie end pin mounts at the back side of the lower block between the conventional end pin and the back plate at 44deg. the laborie end pin is installed directly into the block via a tapered hole, standard 17:1 taper. as a result of the angle the weight of the bass is thrown forward or the pin is cantalevered however you wnat to say it. as i undersatnd it it takes the weight off the thumb of the player. the flip side is it is inclined to rock side to side which is one of the adjustments the player must make.

there are several other issues with end pins. for example some of the carbon fiber ones get pretty wiggely when they are extended to a significant length, excess endpin inside the bass seems to affect the sound and the material that the end pin is made of seems to affect the sound of the instrument.

[labravajazz]

Aside from the laborie wooden endpin which is now being promoted as superior to carbon fibre ones are there any other manufactured wooden pins available? Also as far as the socket goes what would be a historically accepted form? I imagine one would need a pin of a certain length for standing and another for sitting etc?

[RCWilliams]

Originally Posted by labravajazz

Aside from the laborie wooden endpin which is now being promoted as superior to carbon fibre ones are there any other manufactured wooden pins available? Also as far as the socket goes what would be a historically accepted form? I imagine one would need a pin of a certain length for standing and another for sitting etc?

the most traditional socket would be a tapered end pin with a taper in it to recieve the endpin. I have made but not yet installed a couple of these. both pieces have a 17mm run to 1mm diameter decrease taper.

I have mailed a prototype hybrid endpin to a test pilot ( a person I do not know except he contacted me by e-mail about these postings) and have asked him to do a play off and possibly a blind test to determin his take on the end pin. it is constructed of 10mm carbon fiber solid rod, an aluminium furrrel, maple turned pin with a crutch tip for a contact surface. I plan to let him tell me his results before I say what our experoment showed. the hybrid is the only reasonable choice to easily do a switch and play on the same instrument since it takes only a few seconds to make the switch.

if the intrest is there we will produce this product.

[jlattuada]

I am the person testing the endpin working with Rick.

The endpin arrived yesterday.

First impressions – nicely crafted. The carbon rod fits perfect and holds very securely. The weight is nice - I weighed it in at 135 grams compared with my metal endpin of 300+ grams. The height is good, excellent in fact for standing. One thing I hadn’t given much thought to was that I sometimes play in a seated position and would want a pin about ½ the height of this one. It is small enough and light weight enough that I could see wanting to own 2 of these of different heights.

I though I would stain it to match bass, but the natural maple, like the bridge is growing on me. I’m undecided on that one?

As far as the sound – I will have to play quite a bit more to make my mind up about the differences. Several first impressions:

I had recently changed to Eudoxa strings on my bass and had started to experience a small wolf tone around B on the G string. Interestingly, this disappears with the wooden endpin – which is a very good thing.

When playing on a thin oriental carpet surface, I can not hear a lot of difference in the tone between this endpin and the metal one. But, when I move the bass onto hardwood floors the difference is noticeable. There is a more open resonant sound. In fact a larger sound as well. It is like the shorter, lighter wooden endpin carries the sound better to the floor. Again it is a positive effect.

Another think I am hearing much cleaner sound in the upper registers – every thing above thumb position octave sounds much less muddy – could be in part the new strings breaking in, but I can hear and feel it in the bow when in thumb position.

I will keep playing it over the next few days and have a fellow bassist friend over to try it out and play it blind for me.

Overall I am delighted – I think this is close to what I was looking for. Thanks to Rick for allowing me the opportunity to try this out.

[Jim Henderson]

I'm using a 1/2" dogwood pin with a crutch tip in the old Kay currently. I have also been thinking of turning a 10mm pin with a crutch tip for the carved Juzek. That's a very skinny pin for the Juzek and about the only wood I would trust for that narrow a diameter would be straight grained lignum vitae. Definitely gonna try it though.
Jim

[labravajazz]

I would be interested to buy one of these if you make them available - in fact if it works well i guess most people would want 2 one for standing and one for sitting?