You haven't listened to me.

Jeff Bollbach · #1 08-07-2006, 10:56 PM

Some years ago when my website came out it was a pretty exciting time for me. Between almost getting sued over it to having a huge amont of bassists reading my rant was a pretty cool experience. A part of my agenda was to effect as much change as i could to certain practices in bass luthiery that are unscrupulous. One such practice was the criminal use of glues such as crazy glue and epoxy. I had asked folks to become educated about it and make sure that the luthier they were going to did not use these glues. If a luthier who follows these practices sees that his clients are viewing it as negative he may change. Well I see that I must stick my neck out in a more vigilant fashion. Now I am not talking about epoxying a broken scroll on a Kay or crazy gluing a nut on, I am refering to contaminating pedigree vintage one of a kind instruments here. One such bass came into my shop recently and I felt compelled to document it here as this disgusting work had been done after my site came out.

Here we see a bass that has been repaired for either a too thin top or a caved in top. This is a major repair in which the top is either overlaid or inlaid with new wood to bolster up the deformity. It is a fairly common repair on old basses.

Jeff Bollbach · #2 08-07-2006, 11:02 PM

Here you can see the glue line of said patch. A properly glued patch done with hide glue will show little or no glue line as its bond is an electro-chemical one. Think how one cellulose cell joins to another. That is a proper joint. Epoxy is a gap filler and is very viscous. The thickness of the epoxy between the two pieces of wood will be significant in a joint as shown. This is evident by the size of the glue line when feathered out as pictured. The worst part of using epoxy in this situation is it seeps into all cracks and pores in the original wood. It is non soluable so the only way to remove it is to remove original wood.

This quick and dirty fix has more pitfalls then I have described. There is a built in self destruct in this repair. All glues have different properties. If you take a line of set stupid glue and bend it it will break. It sets up crystalline. If you do the same with epoxy it bends-epoxy has little structural strength. This repair was done a few years ago. The top has already significantly caved in again. Why? Because if you join these woods properly they become as one. Done with epoxy as this was you have two thin pieces of spruce with a flexible epoxy layer in between. It's destined to have a short shelf life. The person who did this has a very poor understanding of the gestalt of wood joinery. That's OK cuz in 5 or 10 years they can just say it needs a new bassbar or something and do another huge crappy repair. That is unless some of you bass players become more involved in understanding these things and be more proactive. Just cause your luthier is a sacred cow[be it a Hereford or a Holstein] don't assume they are not ruining basses like this. BTW this bass is an Italian one from the mid 1800's.

Trevorus · #3 08-07-2006, 11:08 PM

I think this touches all kinds of repiar situations. I have done some of the same type of repairs to an acoustic guitar, and there are certain ways to do things. I think it's a good service for you to inform people about these sorts of things!

5stringDNA · #4 08-07-2006, 11:11 PM

Thanks for the heads up Jeff. I don't won, and probably won't own, a priceless antique bass, but it is good info to have. My local luthier is a top notch guy fortunately and know he doesn't pull crap like this.

Jeff Bollbach · #5 08-07-2006, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5stringDNA

Thanks for the heads up Jeff. I don't won, and probably won't own, a priceless antique bass, but it is good info to have. My local luthier is a top notch guy fortunately and know he doesn't pull crap like this.

Not that I don't believe you but how do you know this?

**Matthew Tucker** · #6 08-07-2006, 11:48 PM

So, what are you going to do? Plane it off and start again? Is the bass bar glued with epoxy, too? And how come the back is off, not the belly?

Aaron Saunders · #7 08-07-2006, 11:52 PM

I've been very lucky -- my luthier used to be the head luthier at Heinl's, which IIRC is the David Gage of Canada. Now, I didn't KNOW that until after I spoke with Kieran Overs at the same time my bass was actually at Heinl's getting bumpers put on the edge, about 6 months since said luthier had seen the bass.

He's done several smaller repair jobs for me -- redoing some seams, replacing of the nut, bridge shaping, fingerboard planing, etc. etc. Really class guy, really great work and a very fair price. A bit of a hike to get to his shop, but he really gives every instrument great attention. Jim Smith -- if you're in southern Ontario, there's no one better

.

arnoldschnitzer · #8 08-08-2006, 07:35 AM

I removed a patch like Jeff describes from a beautiful Gand bass a few years ago. The epoxy could only be removed by a super-sharp scraper, and when I got down to the bare wood it was impregnated with the stuff. This required me to scrape original wood off, a process that caused me much trepidation. I probably lost close to a mm of original material, beyond where the epoxificating "criminal" had excavated.

mje · #9 08-08-2006, 07:55 AM

When you're doing an inlaid patch like this, how do you fit the new wood? I would imagine you'd have to lay in the new piece with some sort of transfer marker- carbin paper, whatever- and scrape the high points. I would also imagine this would have to be done hundreds of times.

1st Bass · #10 08-08-2006, 09:46 AM

Is the patch itself bad? or just the glue? I have seen that sort of thing in pictures, before, as a repair for a too-thin top. Is there another way to repair such a sagging top?

I currently have an aging Suzuki plywood bass in hand-- owned by a local school district-- whose top has sagged dramatically, until the f-hole wings really look like wings, and the strings are too low to play. It is questionable whether the bass is worth fixing--but how should it be done, provided it is even worth doing?

I had thought it would be a case of sandbagging the arch back to the original shape, if possible, and at least installing a new bassbar, possibly a breast patch, as you showed. Not so? I have not touched it yet, and would appreciate any counsel.

I would not have used epoxy, so that is not an issue, but if the whole breast-patch idea is bad, I need to know this. I have only done it once, in a viola I made. The back was too thin, and it did not sound good-- I added about 3mm (using hot hide glue, and flamed maple) in an area about the size of the palm of my hand, and feathered the edges to nothing. The change in sound was dramatic.

1st Bass · #11 08-08-2006, 10:43 AM

Where would the springer bar go? Is it in addition to the new bassbar, or instead of? The worst of the sag is on the bassbar side, as the soundpost mostly supported the treble side.

I don't charge much, and for something like this I mainly figure it is good experience, in case I ever face a similar problem on a far more expensive instrument. (In that same vein, I have done soundpost patches in violins that were clearly not worth the investment, and charged very little, just becuse I wanted the training opportunity. I did the chalk fit, just as you describe, and it is nearly magical, when it is complete, and fits perfectly. From the outside, it looks as if there had been a minor scratch there, but it had actually been a bad double split, from being dropped on the bridge.) I did discover that any color other than blue is a better choice, and easier to get off the wood before gluing...:-(

I am not sure the school will want me to pursue this, as I had told them it might be more than the instrument was worth. If they do, however, I want to treat it right. Thanks for your help.

Jeff Bollbach · #12 08-08-2006, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldschnitzer

I removed a patch like Jeff describes from a beautiful Gand bass a few years ago. The epoxy could only be removed by a super-sharp scraper, and when I got down to the bare wood it was impregnated with the stuff. This required me to scrape original wood off, a process that caused me much trepidation. I probably lost close to a mm of original material, beyond where the epoxificating "criminal" had excavated.

I love that-epoxificating! No doubt the sacred cow himself. Hey, I thought that was a pretty slick clue but mebbe it was too obtuse. Ya think?

Jeff Bollbach · #13 08-08-2006, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1st Bass

Is the patch itself bad? or just the glue? I have seen that sort of thing in pictures, before, as a repair for a too-thin top. Is there another way to repair such a sagging top?

Just the glue. This is basically the correct approach. The pictured patch was overlaid and really should be inlaid which is a quantum level more work. But what should be obvious is that I am calling attention to the use of damaging glues in valued instruments.

Uncletoad · #14 08-08-2006, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

But what should be obvious is that I am calling attention to the use of damaging glues in valued instruments.

I'm amazed that someone has enough skill and fortitude to do that level of work and is missing the Glue information.

**Matthew Tucker** · #15 08-08-2006, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

I thought that was a pretty slick clue but mebbe it was too obtuse. Ya think?

When you have a beef, you need to take the bull by the horns and milk it for all its worth, no?

I've never herd of such a tail! . Someone has got a hide to steak their reputation on such udder disrespect for old wood ...

PB+J · #16 08-09-2006, 01:40 PM

Yikes!

Much as I love the double bass, it's just such a headache. Not only does it need expensive, regular repairs, but you can't trust even famous bass luthiers--altough I don't get the clues n this particular case. Every week there's another luthier horror story!

Makes me miss my old ply engelhardt--that sucker was TOUGH. My all carved prima donna is beautiful, but high maintenance

So who do i take my bass to in the DC area? David Mansbridge, in Annapolis? Rumano Solano in Baltimore (does he do repairs?) Make a long trip to Shank Strings in PA?

Scary, I tells ya

Jeff Bollbach · #17 08-09-2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB+J

Yikes!

Much as I love the double bass, it's just such a headache. Not only does it need expensive, regular repairs, but you can't trust even famous bass luthiers--altough I don't get the clues n this particular case. Every week there's another luthier horror story!

Makes me miss my old ply engelhardt--that sucker was TOUGH. My all carved prima donna is beautiful, but high maintenance

So who do i take my bass to in the DC area? David Mansbridge, in Annapolis? Rumano Solano in Baltimore (does he do repairs?) Make a long trip to Shank Strings in PA?

Scary, I tells ya

Shank does good work.

Ed Fuqua · #18 08-09-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Bollbach

Hey, I thought that was a pretty slick clue but mebbe it was too obtuse. Ya think?

Though those with hair may play, only the bald, win?

PB+J · #19 08-09-2006, 02:15 PM

Wait, wait, don't tell me.....moo, cow, sounds like a breed of cow, sounds like...geurnsey? no that's not it....

Got it!

Jeff Guevin · #20 08-09-2006, 02:20 PM

So I shouldn't go to Baldie Guernsey for my luthiery needs. Thanks!