Any casual players here?

[MirageBass]

It would seem I tend to run into the real professionals who are deep into the theoretical and technical stuff that goes along with being a pro musician.

I'm personally just trying to nurture my own style right now, since I'm young, foolish, and not pursuing this as a career. I'm also afraid that, like all other art forms I've attempted in my life, forced instruction will dash my creativity to peices as people try to mold me into a classical/jazz musician. I'd be willing to learn, sure, but only when I feel like it, because if my nose is pushed to the grindstone instead of finding its way there, I'll probably start to associate a hatred with it. The best music comes with a love of the instrument. Hell, it worked with Claypool/Sheehan/many other of my idols.

So, anyone here just a casual player, even if you're in a gigging band? Is anyone here who doesn't have a formal (or even informal) music education background comfortable with themselves as a player with their own style?

[Dave]

I guess Id fall under that description. I have no musical training and everything I know has just come from playing with various other musicians, on here, or just from playing. I have played in a couple bands and I play regularly for my church, but nothing paid or anything anyone would consider "professional."

[Deacon_Blues]

I think I fall partially into the same category too. I have a quite good knowledge in theory and so on and I've been taking some lessons in flute, guitar, bass and vocals. I consider myself a good amateur; the pros I know are way better than me in all aspects but I'm on a reasonably high level for an amateur though. I can't play jazz, the pros I know can play next to virtually anyone... They've been studying music full-time for several years and have several gigs a week so it's natural there is a difference between them and me.

I prefer to play with people on the same level as me, but it would also be nice to sometimes play with some of the pros. They know what's important in music, they don't make stupid mistakes, you don't have to explain anything to them and they nail everything on the first time... or so it seems, at least.... *jealous*

I'm also afraid that, like all other art forms I've attempted in my life, forced instruction will dash my creativity to peices as people try to mold me into a classical/jazz musician.

People say "learn as much as you can and then "forget" everything and just play what you feel and what you think sounds good". That's a good piece of advice. Don't be afraid of knowledge, whether it's theory, technique or something else - it will just expand your views, not limit them. Same goes with listening to lots of different kinds of music. And, worth mentioning is also that "breaking the rules" is probably nowhere else as common as in music, and that is usually what keeps it interesting, IMO.

[Bluesdog]

There's and old saying that goes; the only thing you get from looking back is a sore neck, ..........................

but having said that, and as an untrained amateur player, I would have loved the opportunity as a young bloke to have had formal lessons on theory , technique, and composition structure, but as I say that was 30 years ago and I must say I'm happy to be playing again after a very long break and enjoy it as much as ever, I'll never be a musician but it really is about the enjoyment I feel and bringing it to those listening.

[Amokoma]

I'm totally self-learned, but I want to take some lessons, just to get me a more solid basic skill-set to improvise from. i also play drums, so I don't really have the time (or patience) for proper bass practice. I'm not in it for a career, but to have fun. Actually, I find the gear accumulation part is just as much fun as actual playing/composing. I love trying out new stuff, hence my rediculous GAS-list.

[Otso]

Taking lessons and knowing theory will totally ruin your creativity. I've noticed that when you don't even know what you're doing, you are a lot more creative. Like if you're into painting, knowing what color comes from mixing two other colors will make you less creative. It's best just to throw paint randomly at the canvas and hope that something good comes out of it. That way you can claim that it's all yours and nothing else interfered with your creativity.

[Edword]

I'm completely self-taught, but I want to see how much theory and music reading I can learn from DIY books. There seem to be quite a few out there.

My mom had no idea how to read music when she joined the local church choir in the '70s. She wanted to practice singing with accompaniment at home, but none of us (least of all me) was willing to sit and play that stuff (I could've played it even though I can't read music, as there were chord symbols on the sheets). Finally she got some books, taught herself to play guitar and organ, and learned to sight read for both instruments on her own. And she started this at age 50, w/six kids in the house. She always was the determined type!

I guess I'm trying to follow her example. May just throw some real lessons in to speed things along.

[OhioBassFanatic]

Its just a hobby for me... no band, I play after work to relax. I enjoy "making noise" and dont want to turn it into a Job.

[Otso]

Originally Posted by Edword

I guess I'm trying to follow her example. May just throw some real lessons in to speed things along.

If you have the money and time, there really isn't a reason why not to take lessons (assuming there's a good teacher in the area).

[DWBass]

Well, I've never taken bass lessons but do have a bit of a musical education with other instruments. I suggest taking some form of lessons on proper hand technique to develop dexterity (my failing, I can play but lack speed and dexterity and good soloing abilities) and such. Learning to read is not hard.

My current situation........I'm in 2 bands but neither is gigging at the moment and 1 has even stopped rehearsing (my belief is that band is dead). I've done everything but play on a major tour or play with a well known artist.

[tplyons]

I'm very casual these days... I go days without touching the thing. Maybe I should more often, then I realize I'm enjoying other things right now.

Still looking for a gig to get me out of the house here and there, but not really looking for anything too serious. Ya know?

[Matt Till]

I consider myself business casual.

[Jazz Ad]

I think at least 99 % of members here are casual players.

[MirageBass]

Originally Posted by Otso

Taking lessons and knowing theory will totally ruin your creativity. I've noticed that when you don't even know what you're doing, you are a lot more creative. Like if you're into painting, knowing what color comes from mixing two other colors will make you less creative. It's best just to throw paint randomly at the canvas and hope that something good comes out of it. That way you can claim that it's all yours and nothing else interfered with your creativity.

I know, like all those times I was forced to learn how to sight read brush strokes and swirl structures, or the times I was forced to re-paint the works of Michaelangelo and Da Vinci in unison with other people without room for deviation. And I know that if you just let someone experiment for a while with paints, even though mixing and techniques are innately logical and take mere moments to learn, they'll never learn anything of value on their own and will just keep painting stick figures.

Try a better analogy.

[DazzyPig]

Originally Posted by Otso

Taking lessons and knowing theory will totally ruin your creativity. I've noticed that when you don't even know what you're doing, you are a lot more creative. Like if you're into painting, knowing what color comes from mixing two other colors will make you less creative. It's best just to throw paint randomly at the canvas and hope that something good comes out of it. That way you can claim that it's all yours and nothing else interfered with your creativity.

What a dumb thing to say!! I’m sorry, maybe you are a very smart person in another area, Stamp collecting or ornithology perhaps, but what the hell kind of excuse for not knowing a lot about something is that?! "Yea man, I don't know what colour red and yellow makes, I just feel it, y'know?"

"Taking lessons will totally ruin your creativity" It really Pi***s me off when people try and force their own incompetence on other people by saying stupid crap like that!

And I’m sick of hearing it from "self-taught' players!

I know a few self taught players who are really very good at what they do, and very humble about it, and also know about ten times more who think they are the dogs bo****ks for learning themselves.

It makes no difference, except a taught player will likely:
-Learn faster
-(Often) more correctly
- Often be able to perform something (like an improvised solo) with a greater degree of accuracy due to knowing what they are doing, to perhaps, a greater degree than an un-taught player.

And what makes a self taught player? Most people seem to think, if you don't have a physical teacher who you go and see or who comes and sees you, you are self-taught. Do you read books? Get techniques from magazines? Watch videos on you tube? Learn someone's style from a recording? Jam with other players? All of these are teachers, especially the last one.

And here's another thing about this extra-ordinarily stupid post (it makes me laugh more every time I write it) "Taking lessons will totally ruin your creativity". You could learn anything from a book! You could teach yourself theory and "ruin your creativity" just the same on your own as you could with a teacher (except, like I already said, it'd probably take considerably longer to do so!!!)

I'm not on my high horse about being taught (before you try to shoot me off), but I wish kids who are dumb enough to think things like that would be smart enough to, in future, keep it to themselves!

...*Begins to run from the approaching self-taught authoritive forum members with greater grammar and bigger words to use *

[MirageBass]

Originally Posted by DazzyPig

What a dumb thing to say!! I’m sorry, maybe you are a very smart person in another area, Stamp collecting or ornithology perhaps, but what the hell kind of excuse for not knowing a lot about something is that?! "Yea man, I don't know what colour red and yellow makes, I just feel it, y'know?"

"Taking lessons will totally ruin your creativity" It really Pi***s me off when people try and force their own incompetence on other people by saying stupid crap like that!

And I’m sick of hearing it from "self-taught' players!

I know a few self taught players who are really very good at what they do, and very humble about it, and also know about ten times more who think they are the dogs bo****ks for learning themselves.

It makes no difference, except a taught player will likely:
-Learn faster
-(Often) more correctly
- Often be able to perform something (like an improvised solo) with a greater degree of accuracy due to knowing what they are doing, to perhaps, a greater degree than an un-taught player.

And what makes a self taught player? Most people seem to think, if you don't have a physical teacher who you go and see or who comes and sees you, you are self-taught. Do you read books? Get techniques from magazines? Watch videos on you tube? Learn someone's style from a recording? Jam with other players? All of these are teachers, especially the last one.

And here's another thing about this extra-ordinarily stupid post (it makes me laugh more every time I write it) "Taking lessons will totally ruin your creativity". You could learn anything from a book! You could teach yourself theory and "ruin your creativity" just the same on your own as you could with a teacher (except, like I already said, it'd probably take considerably longer to do so!!!)

I'm not on my high horse about being taught (before you try to shoot me off), but I wish kids who are dumb enough to think things like that would be smart enough to, in future, keep it to themselves!

...*Begins to run from the approaching self-taught authoritive forum members with greater grammar and bigger words to use *

... Methinks you might need some new batteries for your sarcasm detector...

That was Otso's sarcastic way of being sanctimonious and holier-than-thou about music education, apparently feeling the need to answer to the claim that formal music education is not necessary, but admittedly quite helpful, by replying that people who don't take formal education will apparently never guide their bumbling hands across the fretboard with enough precision to play Mary Had A Little Lamb.

Maybe want to come off a little less abrasive, yes? Especially considering that everybody in the thread who is self-taught for one reason or another has admitted that they would be open to, or would actively seek, music education due to its helpful nature if taught properly. I really don't think anybody here who is untrained would consider themselves superior to those who have recieved instruction. In fact, I doubt a lot of people here think of themselves as superior to ANYBODY else (maybe barring Pete Wentz). The thread is mostly asking about feeling comfortable when not formally educated. Keep a wary eye for obvious sarcasm before you unleash the salvo.

BTW, a lot of us who may not even know the names of the notes (myself included) because we decided to pick up the bass as a labor of love even without available or properly-executed education tend to "just feel/hear it, y'know?", and write decently doing it, which is why Otso's wonderful analogy really doesn't fit the bill.

And yes, my experiences in theory, probably because of how they were conducted, destroyed my creativity, and I feel that I'm better off having stopped, even though I feel that it would be beneficial to take them again in the future provided that I have found my musical niche and find a good instructor. Would I tell other people that lessons destroy their creativity? Absolutely not. What happened with me is not applicable to everybody else. So please consider that not everybody functions the same way musically.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by MirageBass

It would seem I tend to run into the real professionals who are deep into the theoretical and technical stuff that goes along with being a pro musician.

I'm personally just trying to nurture my own style right now, since I'm young, foolish, and not pursuing this as a career. I'm also afraid that, like all other art forms I've attempted in my life, forced instruction will dash my creativity to peices as people try to mold me into a classical/jazz musician. I'd be willing to learn, sure, but only when I feel like it, because if my nose is pushed to the grindstone instead of finding its way there, I'll probably start to associate a hatred with it. The best music comes with a love of the instrument. Hell, it worked with Claypool/Sheehan/many other of my idols.

So, anyone here just a casual player, even if you're in a gigging band? Is anyone here who doesn't have a formal (or even informal) music education background comfortable with themselves as a player with their own style?

Just a couple of comments

1) While I am very serious about my playing and music, I am a total gear head. The vast majority of VERY high end players I know (the guys who are at the top of their game) know very little about gear and care even less about it. As I'm sure happens to the more gear-head oriented players on this site in their respective cities, when these players need a new amp, they tend to just call me and ask what sounds good given their budget, playing style, weight requirement, etc. So... I don't think there is any correlation between 'being into gear' and 'quality of musicianship'.

2) The idea that instruction will somehow stunt your personal style is about the biggest myth out there. Learning some theory, better technique, and having someone critique your time will only improve you as a player. Those who say it will 'stunt their personal creativity', IMO, are usually either lazy or just so overwhelmed with the idea of learing some of this stuff, that they use this as a convenient excuse Even if you are a casual player, you would be amazed at how even a single lesson (if you keep an open mind) can bring rapid improvement to you playing.

[MirageBass]

Originally Posted by KJung

Just a couple of comments

1) While I am very serious about my playing and music, I am a total gear head. The vast majority of VERY high end players I know (the guys who are at the top of their game) know very little about gear and care even less about it. As I'm sure happens to the more gear-head oriented players on this site in their respective cities, when these players need a new amp, they tend to just call me and ask what sounds good given their budget, playing style, weight requirement, etc. So... I don't think there is any correlation between 'being into gear' and 'quality of musicianship'.

2) The idea that instruction will somehow stunt your personal style is about the biggest myth out there. Learning some theory, better technique, and having someone critique your time will only improve you as a player. Those who say it will 'stunt their personal creativity', IMO, are usually either lazy or just so overwhelmed with the idea of learing some of this stuff, that they use this as a convenient excuse Even if you are a casual player, you would be amazed at how even a single lesson (if you keep an open mind) can bring rapid improvement to you playing.

1. Strange, most of the deep theorists I know are crazy about gear. The ones that I know either own a mutlitude of instruments or are always shopping for a new one.

2. I wouldn't call it a myth, per se, but it CAN be the result of some bad run-ins with music theory where the dosage is delivered incorrectly. I know one former bandmate who skimmed the surface of theory and came away a better player, creativity intact, but I know one who's gotten so deep into it that he's become an arrogant, twisted robot - again, because he decided to treat it as law instead of as a tool. My experiences with theory thus far have been uniformly negative, but I fully expect to take a music theory course when I head off to college as a music minor, because that's going to be taught by an accreditted professor who's seen enough to know exactly how to teach it.

Of course, this means that I need to learn to sight read, but with a year and a possible applied music course, I think I'll be ready .

[Otso]

Jaco was self-taught. And he only needed 4 strings.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Otso

Jaco was self-taught. And he only needed 4 strings.

And if you have developed the perfect time and intuitive understanding of harmony, phrasing and note choice that Jaco had, then I agree, you probably don't need any further training