Anyone turn down a gig based upon a musician?

[One Bad Monkey]

Here's the deal. I got approached by a music director in town to play a musical in January. It's an MD I haven't performed with yet, so I agreed to it, based upon more exposure in town.

A couple of days ago, the MD I am performing with for our current show asks me to play her high school's musical in February; I couldn't do it because the first two weekends of the HS show interfere with the one that I current agreed to.

Thursday, I get an email from the original music director, talking about getting together this month to go over some things, discuss music, etc.. I notice on her email list who the drummer is. This drummer I've played with before in March; he got fired from our show based upon the fact that he couldn't keep a steady rock beat to save his life. Also, he was supposed to play at the Summer Stock theatre in town last summer, but a friend and myself convinced the booking agent at the theatre to get someone else.

So, while I hate doing this (and I give people hell about backing out of commitments for "silly" reasons), I told the original MD I couldn't do the show based upon my rigorous gigging schedule and called up the current MD to ask if the February gig is still available.

Anyone ever done something like that?

[Skel]

Not exactly like your situation, but yes, I have left bands because of bad musicians, and not really told the truth about why I was leaving. I think the truth in your case, mine, or anybody else's is the right way to go, and it's just amazing how you can be honest while at the same time being very diplomatic and tactical - unfortunately I'm just not good at that part.

Would you ruin your career if you just e-mailed back and told the truth?

[Dave Muscato]

Why did you lie about it?

I would have said, "I noticed on your email list (by the way, you should think about using bcc emails... I don't necessarily want my email address in the hands of everybody you cc'ed) that drummer so-and-so is on the hook for this gig. I have worked with him before and find him to be inadequate at his instrument. Can I convince you to find someone else? I can recommend a few people if you'd like..."

In any case, I would not have canceled the gig, just because the drummer can't play. You can't always choose your co-workers. If you have some marquee value as a headliner, and you are choosing your session guys, that's different, but if *you're* the session guy... well, part of being a professional is working with people who suck sometimes, and making the best of it. I have done sessions with "drummers" who don't even know how to tune drums, let alone play them. You suck it up, do your part, get paid, and go home.

Unless it was a situation, for example, where I knew that the guy had slept with my wife or something, and if I ever saw him again, I'd beat the crap out of him, I wouldn't refuse to work with someone. Certainly not just because they're no good.

Just my opinion.

[One Bad Monkey]

Dave, I hear exactly what you're saying. That's probably the reason I'm not happy with myself in terms of this situation.

Just to add some more back story, this Music Director in question loves this drummer; she touts that he's the best she's ever worked with, and in town. When he got fired from the previous show, she was infuriated. So, the chance to have the MD realize how bad he is really isn't going to happen. I'm fine with that.

The truth of the matter is also that she wanted to start rehearsals - unpaid - next week. While I have NO PROBLEM putting in some extra time to make sure the band is tight, schedule-wise I'm booked until Dec. 22 and not that willing to rehearse for her show during the weekend days while playing another show (that I should be focusing on) at night. That was my actual rationale for backing out of the show, just to let her get someone that will be willing and able to play with them off the bat.

[Skel]

This is sounding a lot like the "rest of the world", like jobs in businesses where you just have to work with people that might be incompetent in your eyes. In these instances, you really do have to just suck it up and do your best to deal with it - which in your case means play. This director loves this drummer and I doubt you're going to change her mind, so your choices are to play or be honest and explain why you aren't going to play and deal with the consequences of your honesty.

[One Bad Monkey]

I hear what you guys are saying, and I do agree. If anything, I think some of my rationale is the fact that I'm trying to justify it to myself. My solace is that it's four months out from actual paid rehearsals, and I gave her five leads, all of which would be happy to play.

For future, would it be out of line to inquire who's already been booked to play the show? While I do agree that this is a business, it's not what I'd consider a regular job; if anything, it's more freelance work in how you're hired, etc..

[Skel]

I think it's completely in line to inquire about who's playing. Nothing dishonest about that and you do have the priveledge of deciding who you play with if it's in advance of making a commitment.

I would also add that it just seems like somebody's incompetence just gets recognized sooner or later, where this director is faced with being incompetent for using incompetent musicians, and it's not YOU that would have to point that out to her. And who really knows the whole story? Maybe she knows damn well this drummer can't play that well and there is some other reason she uses him/her. Sooner or later though, you know? You aren't the only one who can keep time.

[dancehallclasher]

Originally Posted by Skel

This is sounding a lot like the "rest of the world", like jobs in businesses where you just have to work with people that might be incompetent in your eyes. In these instances, you really do have to just suck it up and do your best to deal with it - which in your case means play.

But it's not quite like the rest of the world in this way: if the drummer is bad, it makes everyone sound bad, and hurts your reputation. This can happen to some extent with any kind of group effort but I think especially so in music.

[Marcus Willett]

A few thoughts

1) Tommy Tedesco once said something that is a quote to live by (paraphrasing) "Once I accept a date, I never cancel unless absolutely necessary. I have found over the long haul for this to be a valuable work ethic in this business."

I'm forced to agree. Once I accept a date, the only way I'm gonna bail is something forcing me to....medical emergency or some other contingency. It will be a drag sometimes, but I too find it to be valuable to get the reputation of being reliable.

2) There are guys I will not work with. This does not usurp #1 however. There's a certain piano player in town that I booked a weekend gig with; 3 nights. It was one of the worst musical experiences of my life. The guy constantly played left hand bass while I was playing, had a book and called tunes from it then (without telling me) change the form/key/whatever with the result that I was constantly having to "chase" him while he sat there and sneered. Of course, if someone else called a tune he didn't know or feel comfortable with, he'd refuse to play it...no, no, no...only stuff he could shine on at the expense of everyone else.

I will never work with the guy again, but I had to fulfill my commitment. If I find (beforehand) he's on the gig, I'm not taking it. Which leads me to:

Originally Posted by Dave Muscato

I would have said, "I noticed on your email list (by the way, you should think about using bcc emails... I don't necessarily want my email address in the hands of everybody you cc'ed) that drummer so-and-so is on the hook for this gig. I have worked with him before and find him to be inadequate at his instrument. Can I convince you to find someone else? I can recommend a few people if you'd like..."

3) Music and politics are hopelessly intertwined. Be very careful making a move like that. People talk; word gets around. I've told only a select few I can trust that I will not work with piano player X. Getting gigs has as much to do with people skills as playing skills...actually more. I always ask who's on the gig (out of curiosity) and "lemme check my schedule". If he's on, I'm not available, but I'm not gonna tell the guy calling "I don't wanna work with that guy." That is going to come back to bite you in the ass.

Now, if I'm asked (and I have been) "who do you prefer to work with on this date?", then I can always say I like some other guy without even getting into mister X. It's a small business and one should avoid bad blood whenever possible.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by dancehallclasher

But it's not quite like the rest of the world in this way: if the drummer is bad, it makes everyone sound bad, and hurts your reputation. This can happen to some extent with any kind of group effort but I think especially so in music.

Actually, it's EXACTLY like the rest of the world. Anyone who's spent more than 10 seconds in an office can tell you that.

On to the original topic: If you continue to flake on jobs, eventually you will be label a flake and no one will trust your word. Living up to your commitments, even when they present you with less than perfect experiences, is part of being a professional in any field.

[johnvice]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

A few thoughts

1) Tommy Tedesco once said something that is a quote to live by (paraphrasing) "Once I accept a date, I never cancel unless absolutely necessary. I have found over the long haul for this to be a valuable work ethic in this business."

I could not agree with this more! When I'm offered a gig as a side man, I always ask who else is on-board. If there is a musican I don't want to work with I decline the gig. My "black list" is realtively small. I'll let a contractor know who I won't work with as a condition. I never say why: I'm not into bad-mouthing people.

[One Bad Monkey]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

On to the original topic: If you continue to flake on jobs, eventually you will be label a flake and no one will trust your word. Living up to your commitments, even when they present you with less than perfect experiences, is part of being a professional in any field.

I agree with this 110%. However, due to the fact that I agreed to the gig (which is in late January) and then found out a week later she decided rehearsals would start next week (to which I'm already booked) and be unpaid, I couldn't agree to the extra terms. And when agreeing to the original dates, I got them all and double-checked.

But yes, a lesson learned regardless.

[Buzzgroove]

It would have been good to tell the MD why you were reluctant to play,you may have been able to work something out or bow out due to 'musical differences' , keeping your reliability reputation intact is real important.
That being said I know why you wouldn't want the gig, there is no way I would play with a drummer who could not hold down a steady beat, I've put up with it in the past and lost work through it as a result - plus had the added hassle of the band not working, looking for another band to fill in for our gigs etc. while auditioning for a new drummer.

I realise that the situation described in the thread applies more to session work than band work, but that's one of the reasons I prefer a regular band, being able to pick who I play with and spend time with is a huge bonus, being embarrassed onstage is too gruesome for words.

[Brad Johnson]

I have a very short list of people I won't play "for" as opposed to "with". If I know up front before commiting to a gig I may choose not to play "with" them.

A guitarist I hadn't played with for around ten years called me up about a gig. I didn't remember him being devious in past but apparently that changed. he asked if I was available for a gig about a month in the future. Then he let the details "trickle down.

Date and time
rehearsal (one)
type of music
pay
So far, no deal breakers and me knowing the guy I let him know I was available. Then come the punch lines...

oh by the way it's about an hour away and
the singer is a guy no one in town wants to work with because of his propensity for drama. There was a reason he didn't tell me this up front. Since I'd already said I'd do the gig, I did... almost.

The rehearsal was pretty goofy. The singer wasn't there and the guitarist lead it. They were doing standards with standard arrangemnts, no big deal... except the guitarist insisted on telling me every chord while we were playing. I told him I knew the music and that it wasn't necessary and he still did it. I finally stopped him and told him that unless I was playing something wrong, it really wasn't needed. In the meantime he and the drummer were arguing about beats.

On to the gig. It was the usual cluster....., I showed up on time to find myself the only one there. Eventually a guy showed up who said he was the drummer. He had no drums. Aparrently he had played drums several years prior and they'd gotten him out of storage and were renting him some drums. That's an indication of how far they had to go to get a drummer who'd work with them.

The soundperson they hired didn't show and didn't call. The singer asked us to hang tight while we waited about an hour past start time for him to find someone, anyone to do sound. No luck. It became clear that we weren't going to be doing the gig and I was told I'd still be getting paid.Oh yeah, the guitarist never showed for the gig.

Despite the fact that none of the rest of the "band" had played together and he was the MD, he had taken an earlier gig and decided he didn't need to be at this one at the start. Not sure who he thought was going to lead things and apparently he didn't care. I didn't find any of this out until about a week later when he finally called me. I still haven't seen a dime from that gig. Of course now the decision to play with either of them is a simple one... NO.

The same guitarist called me a couple of months later and asked if I was available on a certain date. I "checked my calendar" and told him no. He then asked where I was playing, which in hindsight was probably because he thought other people had lied about being unavailable and he wanted to catch someone offguard. I told him it really didn't matter, I'm booked that day and if he must know I can get back to him when I get home with access to my full calendar.

I see him and the singer occassionally and they both act like nothing happened and neither has offered to pay me what they owe me, which at this point is moot. It won't happen again with them.