Audiences and Odd time sigs

[MEKer]

What are your thoughts on a band focusing on off-time signatures, odd signatures? Does it put off an audience who just wants hear good grooving stuff to which they can tap their feet?

[tangentmusic]

Rush continues to sell out large gigs with their odd time sig stuff.
What kind of audience / venue do you want to play for?

[MEKer]

Oh, I am just asking in a general fashion as I hear so many pros and cons on the subject.

[agreatheight]

Audiences love odd time signatures, especially the ladies because they are good to dance to.

But seriously, there are some bands who get mainstream fans that play with odd time signatures. There's Rush, obviously. But lots of bands get them into popular songs. From wikipedia:

Allman Brothers Band's "Whipping Post" (11/4)
Nick Drake's "River Man" (5/4)
Soundgarden's "Outshined" (7/4)
Alice In Chains' "Them Bones" (7/8 verse, 4/4 chorus)
Radiohead's "15 Step" (5/4) and "Paranoid Android" (includes 7/4)
Metallica's "Blackened" (7/4 pre-verse, 6/4 verse, 4/4 chorus)
"Smile" by The Fall (10/4)
Sufjan Stevens' "A Good Man is Hard to Find" (5/4)
Incubus' "Make Yourself" (main verse riff is a bar of 7/8 followed by a bar of 4/4)

I love 'em, so I say keep doing them. But I am not in Ohio, so I'm not coming out to see you, lol.

[lunarpollen]

Originally Posted by tangentmusic

Rush continues to sell out large gigs with their odd time sig stuff.
What kind of audience / venue do you want to play for?

But Rush doesn't have universal appeal. Sure, they have a large fan base, but it's a particular type of fan that is into that sort of thing. If your music almost completely consists of odd time signatures and attempts at dexterous cleverness, it will only appeal to those people who are impressed by such things. However, if you keep such stuff to a tasteful minimum, only using it as musical spice for variety's sake, but not basing your entire sound on it, then you're more likely to have a wider appeal. Of course, if you are aiming for a particular crowd then by all means tailor your sound and style accordingly.

[tZer]

The thing about complex meters is making them groove in spite of the fact that they are not common. Anyone can insert an extra beat or 3 into a groove and impose a new time signature on an audience. But if they do so in a clumsy, uncomfortable, awkward fashion - or for the sake of being odd as opposed to using a musical device to create music, then it will never fly.

Regarding 'universally acceptable' - the fastest route to 'universally acceptable' is to use common time signatures. People like symmetry and find asymmetrical representations of things to be a little more challenging. When it comes to the "typical" bar crowd, unless you are masterful at making 5/4, 7/4, et al really groove - you are probably best served sticking with more common time sigs.

That said, if you and your band have the ability to take any time signature and make it groove, many times people won't even recognize that it's a complex time signature. The musicians in the crowd will probably pick up on it - but as long as it's executed smoothly and you don't look like you're trying to pass a peach pit while playing, you should be able to make just about any time signature work.

[BigOldHarry]

Odd time sigs... I think they're more fun for the musicians than anyone. Tricky to dance to, that's for sure!

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by lunarpollen

But Rush doesn't have universal appeal.

True.

Sure, they have a large fan base, but it's a particular type of fan that is into that sort of thing. If your music almost completely consists of odd time signatures and attempts at dexterous cleverness,

And then it all goes horribly wrong... How can a website dedicated to a musical instrument and those who play it end up revealing so much thinly veiled derision directed at those whose musical tastes aren't in lockstep with the lowest common denominator?

I could see it if this was http://www.talkgoingtoclubsandbarswh...sisengaged.com where patrons discuss how to avoid bands/clubs where the music is tough to follow behind seven or eight drinks, but YOU, as a fellow musician, ought to be able to rise above their level.

it will only appeal to those people who are impressed by such things. However, if you keep such stuff to a tasteful minimum

wow.

only using it as musical spice for variety's sake, but not basing your entire sound on it, then you're more likely to have a wider appeal. Of course, if you are aiming for a particular crowd then by all means tailor your sound and style accordingly.

Everybody who plays publicly is aiming for a particular crowd by virtue of their choice of tunes to play. That Rush's crowd is smaller than, say, Ricky Martin's or Justin Bieber's doesn't mean they deserve to be tagged with "such things" and "attempts at dextrous cleverness". Let entertainers entertain and let musicians entertain with music. It's all good.

[walker rosewood]

yeah the trick is make it so the audience doesn't realize it's in an odd meter. Pink Floyd's 'Money' is a good example of that.

I love writing odd meter and mixed meter. We get away with playing the stuff live too, and most of the audience dances away without noticing.

[tZer]

In many of our more 'free-jammy' moments I find if the drummer is opting for a complex meter then trying to find a phrase that makes it feel uncomplicated is my mission. I do that by choosing a phrasing style that almost ignores each bars length for the length of the phrase as a whole. So while he may be in 9, I may go for a phrase that's in 6/8 that aligns somewhere around bar 18. My part sounds 'straight' - his sounds angular - together, they sound interesting and the fact that at bar 18 they mesh and kick off a new round make them make sense to the listener.

If you take complex meters only 1 bar at a time and each bar is it's own complete statement, that's when you expose it as a complex meter. But if you create your part to play across the bars and flow in a way that doesn't feel like it was cut short, you can massage a complex meter into an interesting groove.

Take the lyric "but if you ask for a raise it's no surprise they're giving none away..." - because it's spread across 2 bars of 7/4, it makes the fact that each bar is in a complex meter all but disappear.

Using "Money" again, the otherwise asymmetrical nature of each bar is softened by the entire verse being considered as a whole and not by the fact that it's made up of individual bars with 7 beats in each... Four bars of 7/4 = 28 beats... an even number from an odd meter. While it still feels different, it doesn't feel like the other foot never fell.

Dig?

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by tZer

If you take complex meters only 1 bar at a time and each bar is it's own complete statement, that's when you expose it as a complex meter. But if you create your part to play across the bars and flow in a way that doesn't feel like it was cut short, you can massage a complex meter into an interesting groove.

Take the lyric "but if you ask for a raise it's no surprise they're giving none away..." - because it's spread across 2 bars of 7/4, it makes the fact that each bar is in a complex meter all but disappear.

Using "Money" again, the otherwise asymmetrical nature of each bar is softened by the entire verse being considered as a whole and not by the fact that it's made up of individual bars with 7 beats in each... Four bars of 7/4 = 28 beats... an even number from an odd meter. While it still feels different, it doesn't feel like the other foot never fell.

Dig?

This is a good example and a good point. I can't see "focusing" on odd time sigs just "to be different". If your music calls for it and you can make it sound "natural", great.

Regarding dancers in clubs, they generally want the basic beat. Recognize this from the start. Then decide how many risks you want to take.

[mambo4]

Yeah, "focusing" on odd time is probably going to lead to a lot of less broadly accessible musical choices. Odd time choices really need to be guided by the same criteria as other musical choices: how good it sounds/feels. Many odd time "hits" leave teh general audience unaware.

For natural flowing odd time grooves:
Dave Brubreck
Sting (10 summoners tales is maybe 50% odd times)
Stereolab manages to pull off plenty of odd time techno lounge.

[Pilgrim]

I've played Brubeck's "Take Five" and "Unsquare Dance" to appreciative audiences. But those are not radically different than 4/4, just enough to make the toe-tappers get confused.

[Zoa]

Originally Posted by Auriaprottu

True.



And then it all goes horribly wrong... How can a website dedicated to a musical instrument and those who play it end up revealing so much thinly veiled derision directed at those whose musical tastes aren't in lockstep with the lowest common denominator?

I could see it if this was http://www.talkgoingtoclubsandbarswh...sisengaged.com where patrons discuss how to avoid bands/clubs where the music is tough to follow behind seven or eight drinks, but YOU, as a fellow musician, ought to be able to rise above their level.



wow.



Everybody who plays publicly is aiming for a particular crowd by virtue of their choice of tunes to play. That Rush's crowd is smaller than, say, Ricky Martin's or Justin Bieber's doesn't mean they deserve to be tagged with "such things" and "attempts at dextrous cleverness". Let entertainers entertain and let musicians entertain with music. It's all good.

Woah woah here, slow down a bit. The post you are dissecting was one of the best in this thread, IMHO. He's not knocking Rush, just recognizing the fact that most people in bars and clubs are not there to hear proggy stuff for the sake of being proggy. They're there to dance. No need to get so defensive.

[tangentmusic]

Originally Posted by Zoa

Woah woah here, slow down a bit. The post you are dissecting was one of the best in this thread, IMHO. He's not knocking Rush, just recognizing the fact that most people in bars and clubs are not there to hear proggy stuff for the sake of being proggy. They're there to dance. No need to get so defensive.

Thats why I asked the OP what type of gig they want

[RBrownBass]

Originally Posted by Zoa

Woah woah here, slow down a bit. The post you are dissecting was one of the best in this thread, IMHO. He's not knocking Rush, just recognizing the fact that most people in bars and clubs are not there to hear proggy stuff for the sake of being proggy. They're there to dance. No need to get so defensive.

There's nothing to defend, really, because the attack itself was weak (that happens when the attacker is trying to disguise or otherwise alter his approach). I commented as slowly as required in my previous post.

The guy you're talking about used several time-honored methods to knock music that isn't (to the ears of the layman) simple enough to dance to when drunk off one's behind. The parts of his post that I bolded are the clue. You don't see it in the bolded, I can't help you.

There are ways to say anything. For example, your post wasn't a lot more openminded than Felixxxx's was. Whatever "proggy" is, I'm sure it could have been better described as "music that people listen to when the music itself is what matters". Takes only a few more syllables.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by agreatheight

Audiences love odd time signatures, especially the ladies because they are good to dance to.

But seriously, there are some bands who get mainstream fans that play with odd time signatures. There's Rush, obviously. But lots of bands get them into popular songs. From wikipedia:

Allman Brothers Band's "Whipping Post" (11/4)
Nick Drake's "River Man" (5/4)
Soundgarden's "Outshined" (7/4)
Alice In Chains' "Them Bones" (7/8 verse, 4/4 chorus)
Radiohead's "15 Step" (5/4) and "Paranoid Android" (includes 7/4)
Metallica's "Blackened" (7/4 pre-verse, 6/4 verse, 4/4 chorus)
"Smile" by The Fall (10/4)
Sufjan Stevens' "A Good Man is Hard to Find" (5/4)
Incubus' "Make Yourself" (main verse riff is a bar of 7/8 followed by a bar of 4/4)

I love 'em, so I say keep doing them. But I am not in Ohio, so I'm not coming out to see you, lol.

"Estimated Prophet" by The Grateful Dead
"Black Dog" by Led Zeppelin
and almost everything by Captain Beyond

[MEKer]

Originally Posted by tZer

In many of our more 'free-jammy' moments I find if the drummer is opting for a complex meter then trying to find a phrase that makes it feel uncomplicated is my mission. I do that by choosing a phrasing style that almost ignores each bars length for the length of the phrase as a whole. So while he may be in 9, I may go for a phrase that's in 6/8 that aligns somewhere around bar 18. My part sounds 'straight' - his sounds angular - together, they sound interesting and the fact that at bar 18 they mesh and kick off a new round make them make sense to the listener.

If you take complex meters only 1 bar at a time and each bar is it's own complete statement, that's when you expose it as a complex meter. But if you create your part to play across the bars and flow in a way that doesn't feel like it was cut short, you can massage a complex meter into an interesting groove.

Take the lyric "but if you ask for a raise it's no surprise they're giving none away..." - because it's spread across 2 bars of 7/4, it makes the fact that each bar is in a complex meter all but disappear.

Using "Money" again, the otherwise asymmetrical nature of each bar is softened by the entire verse being considered as a whole and not by the fact that it's made up of individual bars with 7 beats in each... Four bars of 7/4 = 28 beats... an even number from an odd meter. While it still feels different, it doesn't feel like the other foot never fell.

Dig?

Very insightful. Any "rules of thumb" that can carry a bassist through as you describe...other than playing 4-5 notes and always leaving 6 and 7th beat empty? (Yes, holes are valuable anyway, I know) Something to which we all can say: Ho! Just learned something!

Would be a great tip for those of us who struggle with odd sigs. I know I do.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by MEKer

Very insightful. Any "rules of thumb" that can carry a bassist through as you describe...other than playing 4-5 notes and always leaving 6 and 7th beat empty? (Yes, holes are valuable anyway, I know) Something to which we all can say: Ho! Just learned something!

Would be a great tip for those of us who struggle with odd sigs. I know I do.

It comes down to counting (of course) and accents, in my experience.

"Take Five", for example, is in 5/4 with an accent pattern that looks like this:
| 1 2 3 4 5 | 2 2 3 4 5 | 3 2 3 4 5 | 4 2 3 4 5 |

The down beat (1) is the strongest accent with a secondary accent (4) that's a little weaker - providing a sort of 3/4 + 2/4 result.

"Money" (Pink Floyd) is in 7/4 and the accent pattern is:
| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 |...

Sort of like 3/4 + 4/4 with the last two beats of the 4/4 (beats 6 and 7) 'setting up' the next bar...

Now Paul Simon's "The Cool, Cool River" from Rhythm of the Saints is (I think) in 9 - and I am not sure if it's 9/4 or 9/8 - and the only way I was able to lock in on that particular groove was to diligently count |1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9|

So - my rule of thumb for odd time sigs - sit down with the song and listen closely to the accent pattern. Determine the number of beats per measure and start calibrating your brain by counting along with the song and paying special attention to the accents.

It sometimes helps to subdivide (5/4 = 3/4 + 2/4) because in some 5/4 songs, that's how the accents fall while in others it may be more 2/4 + 3/4 while still others may be 4/4 + 1.

A 'game' I've played with my band I called "pyramid" where we'd take a straight 12 bar blues pattern and start it in 3/4 - play a few rounds of it, then on cue change it to 4/4 - a few rounds, change to 5/4, etc... It's very interesting how significantly a simple blues jam becomes when you move it through gradually increasing time signatures.