Bad experience with other TBer on the "for sale" forum

[Dragonlord]

OK, I hate having to do this, but first I think it's my duty to tell and second I need some advice.

I recently saw a Warwick Streamer Stage II 5 for sale on TB by bannedwit. It was "bought in January for $2800". It was as new and the seller was asking for "$2,650 OBO". A few posts later it turned out that he'd give it around $2,000, which is a great deal for me because these things go for $3,500 new in Europe. He was ready to give it for $800 less than he got it, supposedly 2 months ago, and that made me a bit suspicious, but what the hell, if he really needs the money then that's ok with me.

I said I'd be interested if it could be shipped to Greece, he said he could do that and we started talking. He asked for $2,165 and, as it was a very good deal, I didn't try to bring it down any more (although I probably could, as I was the only one interested). So, he sent me photos, all seems good, his ebay feedback is good, and we're just waiting for me to gather the money.

So, last night I was searching TB for MEC pickups, and came across a post of his that said about "his streamer" that was posted in December. What the heck I said, he said he bought it on January... So I did some research and found this post, dated December 2nd 2005:

Streamer Stage II 5 in Da House

Ahhh this is a great bass. Stupid Guitar Center had one hanging up when they sold the 5 stringer I was looking into...

Of course I had to buy it... I found a website www.basscentral.com and they have them for $2400 where G.C. wanted $2900. So I got them to knock the price down to match it and then got 10% for the Black Friday deal they had going on before 10 am.

OK, so he got the purchase date wrong by a month, not a big deal (although when you say in the middle of March that you bought it in January and you bought it in the beginning of December it's almost double time). What caught my attention was the price he paid for it: GC had it for $2,900, he got them to knock the price down to match basscentral's $2,400, and then he got 10% because they had a special deal that day... That would take us down to $2,160.

What he had told me about the price he paid in a personal email was:

Yeah I bought it new from Guitar Center in Niagara Falls, NY this January...

They had it for $2950 and I haggled them down to $2800 tax and all (and we have
8.25% sales tax here!)...

Note that he also put the ad at the new Warwick forum, and there he said that he bought it for $2,900 (vs. $2,800 on TB).

I asked him about it and he said that he got it for $2,400 and that this included the 10%, but I can't see that in the first post I quoted. I see "$2,400 and THEN 10%".

This would mean that the guy bought a bass for $2,160, played it for three months and then tried to sell it for $500 more. When that didn't work he tried to sell it for the price he got it for, but I doubt that if someone offered the $2,650 he was asking he would turn that down.

When I tried to tell this story in the relevant thread in the For Sale forum, seconds after I had spoken to him on AIM, I couldn't find it! Seems he deleted it. I know he'll come and say that it's not for sale anymore, but what he told me on AIM was:

xXxKRIPTICxXx (7:36:39 μμ): well i dont think I am going to sell it, we will have to see about this whole audition i have in a couple days

This means that he hasn't decided if he'll sell it or keep it, and definitely doesn't justify deleting the thread...

My question to you is: should I give negative feedback to the guy? I mean, I didn't actually buy the bass as I am definitely not sending money to someone who was lying to me when I was 100% sincere with him. But I think that if he tries to sell anything else (or the same bass) potential buyers should know that he isn't a 100% straight up guy.

[Rumzini]

I think giving him negative feedback is a moot point after this thread.

[bannedwit]

There are 2 sides to every story...
Nice job trying to make me look like a huge jerk though, I really appreciate that. Very mature.

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

I recently saw a Warwick Streamer Stage II 5 for sale on TB by bannedwit. It was "bought in January for $2800". It was as new and the seller was asking for "$2,650 OBO".

OBO = OR BEST OFFER... As in whatever you are willing to pay for it...

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

I said I'd be interested if it could be shipped to Greece, he said he could do that and we started talking. He asked for $2,165 and, as it was a very good deal, I didn't try to bring it down any more (although I probably could, as I was the only one interested). So, he sent me photos, all seems good, his ebay feedback is good, and we're just waiting for me to gather the money.

True, he wanted this bass and I gave him all the photos and even a ton of time to get the money together. He hears that I am not going to sell it and fishes for reasons to complain about it. Also, probably so he can have a "reason" for me to sell it to him for much less than what we discussed.
And ME being suspicious my eye.. You were practically begging me to take half the cash. I had to keep telling you to wait and hold the money. Every day on AIM all he did was try to get me to take half the cash, send the bass and then in a month I would get the rest and FROM GREECE none the less... and HE is telling you all that I was suspicious. I thought he was going to be a new version of those chain letter Nigerian prince scammers who take your stuff and write bad checks. So you get hosed both ways.. No money and no gear.

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

So, last night I was searching TB for MEC pickups, and came across a post of his that said about "his streamer" that was posted in December. What the heck I said, he said he bought it on January... So I did some research and found this post, dated December 2nd 2005:
Streamer Stage II 5 in Da House
OK, so he got the purchase date wrong by a month, not a big deal (although when you say in the middle of March that you bought it in January and you bought it in the beginning of December it's almost double time). What caught my attention was the price he paid for it: GC had it for $2,900, he got them to knock the price down to match basscentral's $2,400, and then he got 10% because they had a special deal that day... That would take us down to $2,160.

Yep.. Read below and re-read my appology to you for this. Seems like you saved the conversation from AIM. I based the sale date on my credit card statements. I took how many bills statements I got (3 so I said 3 months). Plus I bought the bass as a gift to myself for landing a job in my field. I didnt get that job until a week before Christmas. It was bought on

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

This would mean that the guy bought a bass for $2,160, played it for three months and then tried to sell it for $500 more. When that didn't work he tried to sell it for the price he got it for, but I doubt that if someone offered the $2,650 he was asking he would turn that down.

Which I appologized to him for.
He called this selling strategy stealing. I feel that it is not the case... The whole US economy is based upon buying cheap and selling higher. Even stock markets. I appologized to him regarding this matter and tried to explain my reasoning. So that means everyone who got something for free or cheap and tries to sell it on ebay or privately is "stealing" and ripping off people. Weather it is new or used is not the point. I could have put $1,000,000... whatever the case may be. YES i shouldn't have said that I paid that price (just done so people don't say I'll give you $100 and some tissues) but, we got the price down to $200+ what the bass cost me so this is irrelivent. After feeling if this bass was going to sell or not, I REMEMBER POSTING: "I Do now want to let this bass go for anything under $2000"... Once, I told him about the above, he got all childish and gave me the "goodbye". Probably because he didnt get his way and because he had no good counter point or no way of winning in this discussion.

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

When I tried to tell this story in the relevant thread in the For Sale forum, seconds after I had spoken to him on AIM, I couldn't find it! Seems he deleted it. I know he'll come and say that it's not for sale anymore, but what he told me on AIM was:

xXxKRIPTICxXx (7:36:39 μμ): well i dont think I am going to sell it, we will have to see about this whole audition i have in a couple days

Yeah, now post the whole conversation, especially the part where you don't try to copy and paste sentences to make me look like a bad guy. I told you I had news before you started on this whole rant and rave about the price. thing.. My news was... drum roll... that I am not going to put this bass for sale because I can use it for the band I am auditioning for. So that means your ploy of trying to get if for less went down the drains and now you are mad about it.

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

This means that he hasn't decided if he'll sell it or keep it, and definitely doesn't justify deleting the thread...

Thread was deleted because it isn't for sale. I helped the moderators out I thought that is what you do when something is sold or not available anymore...? TO THIS DAY, I get emails from people interested in buying stuff from posts that were made years ago on paintball forums asking about paintball guns that i had for sale and sold already way back when.

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

My question to you is: should I give negative feedback to the guy? I mean, I didn't actually buy the bass as I am definitely not sending money to someone who was lying to me when I was 100% sincere with him. But I think that if he tries to sell anything else (or the same bass) potential buyers should know that he isn't a 100% straight up guy.

Do whatever you want to do... I tried being polite to you and took time away from my job to talk with you on AIM which seemed like every day, just so you can keep trying to buy this bass with only half the capital for it.

------------------

With that said and done, once again, I appologize...
This was a headache from day one and looks like it won't stop thanks to this immature post.

[Blackbird]

I'm going to step in before this gets uglier. Apologies to Pacman and Xavier.

I haven't read the stories written here, but regardless of that, using TalkBass to badmouth other folks is not cool, even if you're right. There's a feedback Forum where these kinds of posts can be made, and if you really need advice from members in general, at least leave the other person's name out of it.

Let's close this before it gets any uglier. Good luck to both of you.

Edit: Just noticed the Feedback Forum is closed. The general gist of my posts still stands.

[Dragonlord]

OK, seems like my other thread was closed, but I had a question there that didn't have the time to be answered.

My question is: should I still give negative feedback to another user if I didn't end up to actually be the buyer?

Hi-jacking this thread a bit, because I didn't get the chance to answer to the user on my other thread: If anyone has any questions or doubts about what I say, please contact me by pm. My side of the story is 100% accurate, I can assure you with full logs and mails if needed. Just want to make things clear.

Thanks.

[guy n. cognito]

My guess is that feedback is for sales only, and you would be opening pandora's box by leaving feedback when no sale has occurred.

My other guess is that this thread will also have a short life. The man usually frowns upon reopening closed threads.

[Dragonlord]

No, Blackbird's cool, he sent me a pm that I'm welcome to ask again.

The reason I gave the full story in the other thread was to give a better understanding on the case, so that you can tell me whether I should leave feedback. I am a bit hesitant, I went to leave feedback but stuck to the "I am: seller/buyer/trader" field. On the other hand, isn't that why we have feedback? To learn any positive or negative experience other TBers had with a certain seller... Dunno.

[Pruitt]

I dunno. It just seems like sour grapes to me.

[guy n. cognito]

There are three sides to every story: yours, his and the truth. I'd guarantee that if you leave negative feedback for him, he'll return the favor.

You're not out any money. Just let it go.

[Dragonlord]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

You're not out any money. Just let it go.

It's not a revenge thing, negative feedback is there for future buyers. I probably will though.

Edit: I competely disagree with what you said about three sides to every story, this means no-one ever is right or wrong... It applies to many situations, but not in all of them. When someone lies, they lie, no doubt about it, trust is broken. If you read the other thread and think I was wrong somewhere, please let's take it on a PM level and not in this thread (don't want this to be locked too). I'm sure you have better things to do, but anyway, I offered :P

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

It's not a revenge thing, negative feedback is there for future buyers.

What did he do wrong? Charge too much for a used bass? As far as I can tell, you didn't have a problem with it until you found out what he really paid for it. And, quite honestly, what he paid for is is irrevelent to it's current value. Decided not to sell the bass? That happens alot around here.

If you leave feedback to warn "future buyers," he'll leave feedback for you for "future sellers." There is currently another streamer 5 for sale on the forum. Go se if that guy will sell internationally and be done with this whole affair.

[Dragonlord]

Damn. OK, I'll give a quick answer: he lied about how much he paid, a trust issue which I find very important in situations like this, and I didn't know that he decided not to sell the bass until AFTER I told him everything I had to say. Please, if you want to argue further on it, let's just take it to a pm level.

[bannedwit]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

What did he do wrong? Charge too much for a used bass? As far as I can tell, you didn't have a problem with it until you found out what he really paid for it. And, quite honestly, what he paid for is is irrevelent to it's current value. Decided not to sell the bass?

+1

[Pruitt]

Originally Posted by Dragonlord

Damn. OK, I'll give a quick answer: he lied about how much he paid, a trust issue which I find very important in situations like this, and I didn't know that he decided not to sell the bass until AFTER I told him everything I had to say. Please, if you want to argue further on it, let's just take it to a pm level.

I have to be honest, I find that humerous. What's the price he said he paid or actually paid have anything to do with what he was selling it for? Either your willing to purchase the item at the price he was asking or your not. I don't understand where you were wronged? Regardless of what he paid, he has the RIGHT to charge what he sees fit. Just as it is your right to only pay what you're willing. If those two items are not agreed upon, no one is in the wrong. There's simply just no sale.

Again, this just seems like sour grapes to me...

[NJL]

Originally Posted by guy n. cognito

There are three sides to every story: yours, his and the truth. I'd guarantee that if you leave negative feedback for him, he'll return the favor.

You're not out any money. Just let it go.

+1

Someone needs to just let it go and move on with life...

[guy n. cognito]

I'm just answering your question. You see this issue one way, he sees it another. If you decide to leave feedback, even though there was no sale or money exchanged, I'm sure he will do the same. You will have a hard time purchasing another bass with negative feedback. But, hey, it's Paul's website. Send him an e-mail and ask him.

[bannedwit]

TO END THIS WHOLE THING:

no disrespect, no offense. My bass was the one for sale.

Our deal was for $2200.
The guy is in Greece, he asked to pay half... $1100
THEN I send the bass. (and have sleepless nights from then on wondering if I will ever see this other $1100 again or take a HUGE loss)
Then when he gets paid next month (end of April) he would "send" the rest of the cash.

What do you see wrong with this picture?

Stop with this nonsense, you arent out ANY money and you can't even come back with a whole "I postponed getting another bass" (custom Warwick for $3200+ he wanted)
because regarless, YOU had no money for it.

Sorry things didnt work out. Sorry, that I will be using this bass again and have a need for a 5 string. But stop harping on this.

Leave negative feedback, whatever, I am not going to act childish and give you negative feedback, even if you are acting like this. I am not selling on here anyways ever again becuse of having this high school type drama.

MODERATORS, can you do something about this now? This is getting out of hand

[cosmicevan]

hey guys, i have a WISHBASS that i paid 4 million dollars for. it's your lucky day...i'm selling it for a measly $10,000 due to the bill collector knocking on my door. my loss = your gain.

************
buyer beware...always!!! if someone wants to overpay for something that's up to them. if a buyer can be convinced to buy something due to a story, that's their business. forging a receipt or appraisal is a different story entirely (like having a certified letter for a vintage instrument that is not 100% original). if you see someone selling something for too much money, chime in if you like...but it is still ultimately between the seller and the buyer. not every store charges the same thing for new & used goods...especially when it comes to musical instruments. i always scour the news papers and posting boards looking for deals to resell. at times, i can turn-around a piece of gear for a few bucks, at times, i can turn-around a piece of gear for a few hundred bucks. i've sold things at a discount and seen them reposted days later for more money too...it's the nature of the used market.

just my 2 pennies.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by bannedwit

TO END THIS WHOLE THING:

no disrespect, no offense. My bass was the one for sale.

Our deal was for $2200.
The guy is in Greece, he asked to pay half... $1100
THEN I send the bass. (and have sleepless nights from then on wondering if I will ever see this other $1100 again or take a HUGE loss)
Then when he gets paid next month (end of April) he would "send" the rest of the cash.

What do you see wrong with this picture?

Stop with this nonsense, you arent out ANY money and you can't even come back with a whole "I postponed getting another bass" (custom Warwick for $3200+ he wanted)
because regarless, YOU had no money for it.

Sorry things didnt work out. Sorry, that I will be using this bass again and have a need for a 5 string. But stop harping on this.

Leave negative feedback, whatever, I am not selling on here anyways ever again becuse of having this high school type drama.

MODERATORS, can you do something about this now?

See? His side.

[NJL]

Originally Posted by bannedwit

TO END THIS WHOLE THING:

no disrespect, no offense. My bass was the one for sale.

Our deal was for $2200.
The guy is in Greece, he asked to pay half... $1100
THEN I send the bass. (and have sleepless nights from then on wondering if I will ever see this other $1100 again or take a HUGE loss)
Then when he gets paid next month (end of April) he would "send" the rest of the cash.

What do you see wrong with this picture?

Stop with this nonsense, you arent out ANY money and you can't even come back with a whole "I postponed getting another bass" (custom Warwick for $3200+ he wanted)
because regarless, YOU had no money for it.

Sorry things didnt work out. Sorry, that I will be using this bass again and have a need for a 5 string. But stop harping on this.

Leave negative feedback, whatever, I am not going to act childish and give you negative feedback, even if you are acting like this. I am not selling on here anyways ever again becuse of having this high school type drama.

MODERATORS, can you do something about this now? This is getting out of hand

If this was the case, I sure as hell wouldn't of sold him the bass either.... hell, I wouldn't even do that with my own family members let alone some strange duck across the whole wide world.