Go Back   TalkBass Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Bass Guitar Forums > Miscellaneous [BG]
Register Rules/FAQ/CUP Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Miscellaneous [BG] Music-related discussion, not specific to the bass or any other forum


Supporting Membership
Thank You

Latest Supporting Member
Donate to Upgrade Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: FL
bar sued for not paying royalty fees

Sign in to disble this ad
Who is actually making the money from these "licenses"?

http://hamptonroads.com.nyud.net/200...copyright-suit

Would you pay almost $14,000 to hear a local band play a cover version of Tom Petty's hit "I Won't Back Down"?

Randy White might, and he's not happy about it.

White's problems began Aug. 10, 2007. It was a Friday night, and a crowd came to his club, called Randzz, to drink beer, play pool and maybe listen to the band.

At least one person listened - closely. The band's playlist, which included hits by Stone Temple Pilots and Bob Sege r, got that person's attention.

About 10 months later, several music publishers filed a lawsuit against White, accusing him of copyright infringement. They argued that he was allowing bands to play copyrighted songs without their permission or the proper license. In late May, a federal judge ruled in their favor.

White said he plans to appeal. "I just don't feel I'm responsible for it," he said. "They should be talking to the bands."

The American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers says otherwise. For an annual fee, ASCAP issues licenses that allow TV networks, radio, restaurants, nightclubs and a slew of other venues the right to play clients' music - an inventory of about 8-1/2 million songs.

The 2009 licensing fee, based on seating capacity and other factors, would cost White $1,501.20 for his business.

"This is how songwriters make a living," said Vincent Candilora, ASCAP's senior vice president of licensing. "I think the problem with the public is they don't separate the songwriter from the recording artist. They think that everybody is Bruce Springsteen or Rob Thomas."

For a place that isn't easy to find, Randzz Restaurant & Pub drew ASCAP's attention quickly after it opened in 2006.

Randzz sits on a 55 mile-per-hour stretch of Holland Road, surrounded by farm fields. Motorcycle parts, Harley-Davidson memorabilia, quirky signs and women's lingerie line the walls. Its slogan: "Conveniently located in the middle of nowhere, but worth the ride!" It bills itself as more than a biker bar, with live music most Friday and Saturday nights.

ASCAP has teams assigned to monitor whether businesses are following the public performance aspect of copyright law. About five employees cover Virginia and North Carolina, scouring the Internet for leads and making note of openings and closings, Candilora said.

They will call and send letters to remind business owners that they need a license to play songs in the ASCAP inventory - whether on compact disc or performed by a live band. Most comply, Candilora said.

White didn't.

Between September 2006 and August 2007, he received at least nine letters regarding the need for a license or artist permission, according to an opinion filed May 22 by U.S. District Judge Mark S. Davis.

White said he ignored the letters and also some phone calls because he thought they were "bogus."

"How does this little place do irreparable damage to some Joe Blow who wrote a song 20 years ago?" he asked.

ASCAP sent an investigator to the bar on that August night in 2007. The investigator cited three instances where ASCAP members' songs were performed live.

The publishers of those songs - "I Won't Back Down," "Interstate Love Song" and "The Fire Down Below" - filed the copyright infringement lawsuit almost a year later, after White still refused to buy a license from ASCAP.

"I guess he figured he was the small fish: 'I'm in Suffolk, Virginia. They must have bigger fish to fry,' " Candilora said of White. "It isn't about the size. They gave us no choice."

White said t he performances are done by garage bands made up of people who play on weekends.

"I have nothing to do with the playlist for the bands," White said.

It d oesn't matter, Candilora said. People go out to eat or drink for the atmosphere, for which music is a critical component. White benefits from having a band play live, he said.

The judge agreed.

"Defendant asserted to ASCAP that the performer has the sole responsibility to obtain permission or a license to perform copyrighted material. This argument is without merit," Davis wrote. "As Defendant was operating an ostensibly profit-making establishment, he had a financial interest in the infringing activity."

Davis forbade White from allowing performances of any music in the ASCAP inventory without authorization and ordered him to pay $10,500 in statutory damages, plus about $3,300 for the music publishers' attorney fees and other costs.
__________________
  #2  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:35 PM
john turner's Avatar
You don't want to do that. Trust me.
Forum Administrator
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: atlanta ga
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadcam View Post
Who is actually making the money from these "licenses"?
the artists, or whoever else owns the rights to the recordings.


i love this rationalization
Quote:
"How does this little place do irreparable damage to some Joe Blow who wrote a song 20 years ago?" he asked
that's like saying "how does me not paying for the few groceries and beers that i need hurt the supermarket i stole them from"

__________________
Talkbass Forum Administrator Ask me, I'm here to help.

Lord Only on Myspace - 4 New Lord Only Tracks from our 2nd CD
Lord Only - yes. we're back. sorta
versatile residue -12 minute instrumental

I find it elevating and exhilarating to discover that we live in a universe which permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we. - Carl Sagan
Rock 'n' Roll... It's got nothing to do with journalists, and it hasn't really even got anything to do with musicians, either. - Pete Townsend
  #3  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:44 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: USA
The guy didn't pay the licensing fee to ASCAP. He was warned. I don't see what the problem is. I support copyright law being enforced.
  #4  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:46 PM
MatticusMania's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Covina (LA), SoCal
Send a message via AIM to MatticusMania Send a message via Yahoo to MatticusMania
Supporting Member
Yeah, the dude should have paid his dues. If I believe correctly, you only have to pay them once, no? Not an annual thing?
__________________
Bassist for Starveya - www.reverbnation.com/starveya
Sat June 9th @ Shamrocks in Chino Hills - 10pm
Bassist - Veg#33, Buddhist#11, LGBT#5
  #5  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:50 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: NY, NY
Send a message via AIM to GeneralElectric
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatticusMania View Post
Yeah, the dude should have paid his dues. If I believe correctly, you only have to pay them once, no? Not an annual thing?
I believe its annual.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by THand View Post
Really, what I keep thinking is:

put "getting drunk with GE" on bucket list:D
Taking parts donations for another Drunk Rock bass.

FS/FT
Montreux Little Buffer

Ben Lindsey Jazz
  #6  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:52 PM
MatticusMania's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Covina (LA), SoCal
Send a message via AIM to MatticusMania Send a message via Yahoo to MatticusMania
Supporting Member
Well I guess $1500 a year isnt too bad, but he could have avoided all the trouble if he would have only had local original bands play. (or at least, you know, wrote back to ASCAP telling them he only has original local bands play)
__________________
Bassist for Starveya - www.reverbnation.com/starveya
Sat June 9th @ Shamrocks in Chino Hills - 10pm
Bassist - Veg#33, Buddhist#11, LGBT#5
  #7  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:53 PM
Registered User

Beta Tester: Source Audio. Hacker: Heavy Drone FX
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spokane, WA.
I've seen a lot of ASCAP stickers popping up at venues around town. Along with signs that say,..."Let us know if you are a cover band".

I was wondering if CR had something to do with it.
__________________
Mecha Shiva On Soundcloud
Mecha Shiva Torrent on Mininova available for download.

Mecha Shiva On Facebook
  #8  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Florida
They will call and send letters to remind business owners that they need a license to play songs in the ASCAP inventory - whether on compact disc or performed by a live band. Most comply, Candilora said.

I think that is completely ridiculous that you have to pay and annual fee to play a CD in your establishment. Once you buy the CD it is your property and I thought you had the right to play it where ever and when ever you wanted. You're not selling the CD to people in the bar, so I'm failing to see how that is copyright infringement?
__________________
I don't look for used condoms but I seem to find them all the time - Kwesi
  #9  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:54 PM
MatticusMania's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Covina (LA), SoCal
Send a message via AIM to MatticusMania Send a message via Yahoo to MatticusMania
Supporting Member
I came across a craigslist ad for a bar trying to book bands, they said original bands only, as they hadnt paid any ASCAP fees.
__________________
Bassist for Starveya - www.reverbnation.com/starveya
Sat June 9th @ Shamrocks in Chino Hills - 10pm
Bassist - Veg#33, Buddhist#11, LGBT#5
  #10  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edinburgh & Dundee, Scotland
Don't see a problem here. He broke the law and is now paying for it.
__________________
EB Musicman/Ibanez/Ampeg/Peavey/Marshall/Tech 21
  #11  
Old 06-12-2009, 04:57 PM
MatticusMania's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: West Covina (LA), SoCal
Send a message via AIM to MatticusMania Send a message via Yahoo to MatticusMania
Supporting Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassanova View Post
They will call and send letters to remind business owners that they need a license to play songs in the ASCAP inventory - whether on compact disc or performed by a live band. Most comply, Candilora said.

I think that is completely ridiculous that you have to pay and annual fee to play a CD in your establishment. Once you buy the CD it is your property and I thought you had the right to play it where ever and when ever you wanted. You're not selling the CD to people in the bar, so I'm failing to see how that is copyright infringement?
If you look at a lot of CDs, just like DVDs, they come with a warning saying something along the lines that you agree the CD/DVD is for personal use and not for public usage.

Bars with jukeboxes also have to pay the ASCAP fee.
__________________
Bassist for Starveya - www.reverbnation.com/starveya
Sat June 9th @ Shamrocks in Chino Hills - 10pm
Bassist - Veg#33, Buddhist#11, LGBT#5
  #12  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:02 PM
Registered User

Beta Tester: Source Audio. Hacker: Heavy Drone FX
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spokane, WA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cassanova View Post
They will call and send letters to remind business owners that they need a license to play songs in the ASCAP inventory - whether on compact disc or performed by a live band. Most comply, Candilora said.

I think that is completely ridiculous that you have to pay and annual fee to play a CD in your establishment. Once you buy the CD it is your property and I thought you had the right to play it where ever and when ever you wanted. You're not selling the CD to people in the bar, so I'm failing to see how that is copyright infringement?
I see a lot of gray area here too. Would you think the performers would have to pay the ASCAP fees as well as they are the ones playing the songs.

Also; What bar owner is going to go up and say,....."Nope Nope Nope,...Stop the song,....You can't play that,...we haven't paid our ASCAP dues."

I'm all for protecting copyrights, but this seems very Orwellian "Thought Police" to me. It also seems a little frivolous/get rich quick to me.

I hear the arguments,....what if someone was playing one of my songs without my permission,....I wouldn't care A,...and B I think most people can make the distinction between a cover band and an original band.

I have no way of backing any of this up because I'm not a lawyer. The laws are black and white I'm sure, but it seems rather oppressive, and should perhaps be re-thought.
__________________
Mecha Shiva On Soundcloud
Mecha Shiva Torrent on Mininova available for download.

Mecha Shiva On Facebook

Last edited by warwick.hoy : 06-12-2009 at 05:04 PM.
  #13  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:02 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: an ignore list near you
Well, this should be fun. Let's try to make this easier as I see the hairs getting split soon. Attention everyone: try to imagine what your opinion would be if you made your living writing songs. I imagine most of the people here are an end user.

Mike
__________________
You can't put a price on cool, but if you could it would be $BLIMP.00

Portal to the Land of Awesome: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f217/toy-blimp-giveaway-644521/

Last edited by mike_v_s : 06-12-2009 at 05:06 PM.
  #14  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Big Island
$1500.00 per year license fee is not out of line for a business to pay. That's just under $29.00 per week for all those songs played (recorded or live). How much business would he lose if he didn't have music? The fee seems fair to me.
__________________
"Rockin' in Puna Hawaii"
-Proud Member of the IOC -
-MIM Fender Club- #9
-Effects Addict Member-(No number yet!)
  #15  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:03 PM
Registered User

Beta Tester: Source Audio. Hacker: Heavy Drone FX
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Spokane, WA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatticusMania View Post
If you look at a lot of CDs, just like DVDs, they come with a warning saying something along the lines that you agree the CD/DVD is for personal use and not for public usage.
This makes sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by MatticusMania View Post
Bars with jukeboxes also have to pay the ASCAP fee.
I was not aware of that.
__________________
Mecha Shiva On Soundcloud
Mecha Shiva Torrent on Mininova available for download.

Mecha Shiva On Facebook
  #16  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:07 PM
EricF's Avatar
The older I get, the better I was.
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Pasadena, CA
GOLD Supporting Member
We play a few covers, but we do such a bad job with them, no one recognizes the song.
  #17  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: (M)a$$hole.
I really don't see the issue, as there is no issue. You pay the fees or you pay the fines. Yep.

NEXT.
__________________
Don't tell me the sky is the limit, when there are footprints on the Moon.
  #18  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Los Angeles
Quote:
Originally Posted by MatticusMania View Post
...I guess $1500 a year isnt too bad...
About $4.80/day average cost if the club is open 6 days a week year round.

About $9.60/day charge for live music 3 days a week year round.

Last edited by Stumbo : 06-12-2009 at 05:15 PM.
  #19  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: an ignore list near you
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumbo View Post
About $4.80/day if the club is open 6 days a week.
So, for about $4.80 per day, artists get compensated for their work. Most places lose more than that in spilled beer and broken glasses. Why is this an issue again?

Mike
__________________
You can't put a price on cool, but if you could it would be $BLIMP.00

Portal to the Land of Awesome: http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=644521
  #20  
Old 06-12-2009, 05:16 PM
MJ5150's Avatar
Online
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Sunapee, New Hampshire
Supporting Member
I hate it when I have to pay for things too. It sucks.

-Mike
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Follow TalkBass on Twitter   Visit TalkBass on Facebook  

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:24 AM.




Copyright 2011 Talk Music Group Inc. All rights reserved.
Play guitar? Visit our new sister site TalkGuitar.com [beta]
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.12
Copyright ©2000 - 2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.