Boomy concert mixes?

[phsycobass]

Has anyone noticce these days, whenever you go to see a famous rock/metal band that all you can hear clearly are the lead guitar, drums and lead vocals? It seems to me that all the concerts that i've been to lately, have had a muddy mix. I could never hear the bass, keyboards, rythm guitar and backing vocals? I'm tired of sitting their feeling like an anvil got droped on my chest every time the drummer pound a tome or bashes the bass drum. Sorry about the rant but I was at a finger 11 and sum 41 concert a while back and after, my friend, knowing i'm a bass player and trying to impress me, said "wow the bass was really loud and clear" but I'll tell you that while I could hear the bass clearly at some points, I'm sure she was hearing the bass drum and mistaking it for bass guitar. Opinions?

*** both bands did put on a good show, especially sum 41 and thats something coming from me because I'm not a huge fan of either band ( i'm more of a classic rock guy) but my lady friend had a spare ticket so I was happy to acompany her

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

[ROON]

I went to a Black Label Society gig last year, everything was surprisingly audible! I expected the bass to be buried under the two guitars.
One thing I've noticed on YouTube is that the sound tech at all the Rock Am Ring concerts suck. Theres always something cutting through too much.

I haven't noticed it so much with the bass drum, but I HATE it when the snare drum is really really loud.

[phsycobass]

thanks for the post

thats an interestion obeservation and I agree about the snare... i'm interested to hear more people's opinions...

[bluestarbass]

It has to do with alot of things. If a room is boomy then then its getting standing waves I beleive, like standing bass waves. Most large venues were not designed for music. Here in indy big bands will play at the fieldhouse where the Pacers play. Talk about bad sound, past the 4th row you cant hear anything, just a boomy mess.

Sometimes a good engineer can compensate for these problems, other times not. The room plays the biggest part. I also has to do with how they are micing the instruments. If they use mics pretty far back or like at the FOH desk the room is going to win. In comparison to the fieldhouse we have a venue here called the music mill that was designed for music from the ground up. All kinds of acoustic treatment, great PA system, and it sounds great.

[Rune Bivrin]

I saw Rush at the Globe Arena in Stockholm, Sweden last Saturday. Geddys bass was mainly a contious rumble, without a single discernible note. And when the synth bass came on I swear I felt my fillings vibrate. But the room is (as the name implies) basically a big ball, and it's well nigh impossible to get good sound there.

[lemur821]

Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. At least you got to hear the bass though. At many of the shows I go to the sound guy doesn't even mix it audibly. When I saw Necrophagist not too long ago the only time I heard the bass was when the player plucked a few notes between songs -- and it was clearly nowhere near loud enough to be audible. They also had a keyboard player, but I sure couldn't hear him either.

Seems like it's not even worth it to go to shows at venues large enough to need reinforcement for the bass.

[bluestarbass]

Seems like it's not even worth it to go to shows at venues large enough to need reinforcement for the bass.

I tend to agree with this. Its sad but the sound is just aweful in a huge venue. Some are better than others. Red rocks, though ive never been there, ive heard amazing things. We even have a venue here in indy called deer creek that alot of really amazing acts swear has awesome acoustics. Ive always been able to hear the music clearly.

If a venue is large, and hasnt been designed for live music from the ground up, then it usually sucks. The idea of a "stadium show" makes me cringe.

Your average listener probably doesnt care though. I know I, and musicians in general get bugged by this stuff much easier.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by bluestarbass

I know I, and musicians in general get bugged by this stuff much easier.

Yes, I certainly do. Not just from a bass player angle either. Missing out on any of the instruments really kills a concert for me. I just don't understand how, in a fairly large venue with shows all the time, the sound guy can be so incompetent as to put one of the players inaudibly low in the mix.

[SteveC]

It's not always the sound guy's fault. Man I get tired of that statement. Rooms, acoustics, people, performers, etc. There are so many variables it's a wonder you hear anything. Do you know everything that went on in pre-production? There may be circumstances you don't know about or beyond the sound companies control. Do you (and by you I mean we) have any idea of what it takes to take a show on the road? Every gig is a different venue with it's own set of issues. Yes there is all kinds of software and gadgits to help, and more gear than most of us know what to do with, and yeah, tickets are expensive and the consumer desreves a good show.

Give the FOH engineer the beneift of the doubt - at least until you know it was his fault. I'm pretty sure they don't show up and say I'm gonna do the worst job I can of mixing the show tonight.

Sorry for the rant. I am not a sound guy.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by SteveC

It's not always the sound guy's fault.

No, not always. But when the kick drum is knocking me off my feet but everything else is turned down to inaudibility, I don't know who else to blame. A venue should have someone who knows the room and the equipment they have well enough to make all the musicians heard, at least.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by lemur821

...when the kick drum is knocking me off my feet but everything else is turned down to inaudibility, I don't know who else to blame.

Yeah, that's far too common these days . . .

The typical mix at the shows I've been to recently (in the audience) is SOLO KICK DRUM with a bit of lead vocal . . . and everything else at about 20-30 dB(spl) LESS! You can't even hear the guitars, let alone the bass . . .

[jady]

I feel it is an issue of not mixing the subs in correctly. I just did a gig on upright bass and they had me almost exclusively through the subs. no tone, just boom.

Non bassists always think that since it is Bass guitar you need lots of bass, the note is in the lower mids people!!!!!

[phsycobass]

Thanks for the posts,

there have been some good points raised in this thread and I agree with almost all of it.

Another thing that I've noticed is that the opening bands playing a big show IME never sound nearly as good as the main band as far as the mix goes. Do bands and sound guys do this intentionally because they don't want the opening bands to show them up?

thanks again for you opinions!

[Human Bass]

I was surprised by how nice the drums and bass sounded great on the pearl jam show i went. It was very nice to hear Jeff

[T-Bird]

Hi.

One thing I didn't catch when reading was the relative position of the listener. If it was mentioned, my apologies.

Unless it's a open air, open field type of a concert, it's more or less all about reflections and standing waves, focus points and resonance. If it is an open field, then the wind does wonderfully wicked things to the frequency curve that reaches Your ears. So it's IMHO lose/lose situation with the wattage they're pumping out these days.

The solution for me, as I've done my share of FOH also, is to locate near or front of the sound booth if I'm listening the band, but as most of the people go to see the band, the sound seems to be unimportant.
When You hear what the sound person hears, it's easier to judge their performance. The FOH person is after all the last human link in the amplification chain and for me, the most important. The industry doesn't want to mess with that if the audience votes with their feet.

The support bands tend to use only a fraction of the PA stacks, specially the subs, so it sounds different. IME not because of the reduced wattage, but because the tuning and the spread of the PA isn't optimal.

Just my 0.02€
Sam

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by phsycobass

Another thing that I've noticed is that the opening bands playing a big show IME never sound nearly as good as the main band as far as the mix goes.

I think that that's mainly due to the fact that the headliner spends as much time as they want to to get the mix "right" for them.
But the opening acts are lucky to get 5 minutes sound check!

Originally Posted by phsycobass

Do bands and sound guys do this intentionally because they don't want the opening bands to show them up?

Sometimes, with some groups . . . or with some FOH engineers . . .
Also, a lot of the time the main output level of the console will ONLY be at max for the headliner . . . for the opening acts, often the headliner's FOH engineer will lower the master level a bit "to protect the drivers" so that nothing will be broken before the headliner hits the stage. It's a valid point.
But whenever I see that happen at shows where my band is the headliner (which is almost always), I'll let the people in charge know that we (or actually, our fans) are paying the bills, so please DON'T lower the Master "to protect the drivers". I think that that's a really unfair practice, an ugly discrimination . . . YMMV

Originally Posted by T-Bird

Unless it's a open air, open field type of a concert, it's more or less all about reflections and standing waves, focus points and resonance. If it is an open field, then the wind does wonderfully wicked things to the frequency curve that reaches Your ears. So it's IMHO lose/lose situation...

VERY true . . .

Originally Posted by T-Bird

The support bands tend to use only a fraction of the PA stacks, specially the subs, so it sounds different. IME not because of the reduced wattage, but because the tuning and the spread of the PA isn't optimal.

I haven't experienced this . . . doesn't mean that it doesn't happen, though . . .

[danbass007]

Hmmmmmmm interesting thread,

I have noticed the same thing as the OP. It also has alott to do with where you were in the room. You'd think that with all of the equiptment they have, they could produce a cleaner mix. And do they REALLY use all those speakers? a friend of mine that works at a big arena says that when nickelback played there, the pa was sending 3.5 kilowatts to each side. HOLY crap thats alott of power. my freind said that there were a dozen midrange speakers and 4 subs on each side... wow.

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by danbass007

...a friend of mine that works at a big arena says that when nickelback played there, the pa was sending 3.5 kilowatts to each side...

I think you've got your numbers wrong . . .

IME EACH sub recieves about 3600 Watts (=3.6 kilowatts) . . .

a "typical" show for 8,000-10,000 people uses about 70,000 Watts PER SIDE! (= 70 kilowatts to each side)

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Originally Posted by deaf pea

I think you've got your numbers wrong . . .

IME EACH sub recieves about 3600 Watts (=3.6 kilowatts) . . .

a "typical" show for 8,000-10,000 people uses about 70,000 Watts PER SIDE! (= 70 kilowatts to each side)

+1, I was thinking about the same thing.

I once used (was forced to use ) 24+6K in a techno-hell in an inside venue for ~500 people. 24K were in 4-point in the dance floor and 6K on "stage". The singer of the group also wanted to be able to sing on the dance floor with his wireless, so that made things a bit interesting to say the least. (As usual I tuned the set with Eliminator album from ZZ-top and at 5AM, that soundcheck was heard quite far away, I later discovered )

That amount of power is quite misleading for a band setting though, as there was 20 active 2*18" subs and 10 active full range 2*15" +horn tops. The low synth frequencies need A LOT of power to be felt. With the same active cabs we used 4+4 for the loudest rock gigs and never ran out of power.

Sam