Bose PAS L1 - is this for real?

[Dave Muscato]

Hello all,

I've done several searches and not found a thread about this yet.

I'm very interested in the Bose PAS L1 systems. If you've never heard of it, PAS stands for Personalized Amplification System. Essentially, it's a portable line array, and each band member has his or her own "mini-PA" that amplifies everything s/he is doing. Read this FAQ for more:

http://www.bose.com/controller?event...cians/faqs.jsp

Okay, so, let me get this straight:

- No more heavy cabs
- No more mixing boards (except maybe an 8-channel one for the drum kit)
- No more dealing with soundmen who would rather drink & check out your female fans than mix your set (not to mention, no more paying the soundmen)
- No need for earplugs, even if you're in the front row
- No need for monitors
- Set up & tear down in one minute flat
- Everything fits in the trunk of a Honda Civic

I could handle maybe two or three of those advantages. But, when you start also including the fact that it's almost impossible for them to feed back, and that you can replace your entire live rig - wedge monitors, bass cabs, guitar amps, mains, subs, mixing board, snake, even the soundman - for under $7k, carry everything in one trip, and you don't need a cargo trailer anymore - it just sounds too good to be true.

I'm very much interested in the opinions of people who have **actually tried** one. A lot of sound guys I've asked about this (and just everyday musicians) tell me it's a crock, it doesn't work, Bose stands for "Bring Other Sound Equipment," etc - but when I ask, "So, you've used one?" they say, "Uh, no, but it just wouldn't work."

I ask because my band is getting ready to gear up for our summer shows. I currently drive a Honda Odyssey minivan, and we have (2) JBL Eon 15s, and a Mackie VLZ1604 board, in addition to my rig (see signature), our guitar players rig (Zinky 25-watt head and 2x12 cab), and our drummer's kit. We currently use wired in-ear monitors. We are considering buying a sub or two and a full-size van, but if I could sell my bass cabs, the mixer, and the Eons, buy a Bose setup (3 towers and say, 6-8 of the bass units [3-4 for me, 2-3 for drum kit, 1 for guitar/vocal]), and stick with my minivan, I'd rather do that. I never liked parking full-size vans, anyway

I should also mention that I have a bad back, and that I already have a Bass POD xt Live, and I prefer the direct tone of that over my cabs, anyway.

So, any experience with them? I know a few TB members use them with their bands...

FYI, we are a 3-piece rock trio (guitar/vox, drums, and bass), and play pretty loud alt-rock.

Thanks!!

Dave

[Geoff St. Germaine]

My experience with Bose products is that they have been too good to be true. Their marketing claims are so ridiculous that the products can never, IME, live up. I've seen measurements for their acoustimass systems and their system designs are remarkably flawed (hole in the frequency response between about 200 Hz and 280 Hz and the satellites roll off at about 13 kHz). One thing I find troubling is that they never list any performance specs for their products, unlike pretty much all other loudspeaker manufacturer. To me these L1 systems look like scaled up acoustimass systems. Tiny woofer for bass duty (6.5") and tiny speakers for the mid/treble duty only this time in a line array. I'm suspicious and I'd have to actually hear it or see a lot more specs to be convinced that it is any good.

[Munjibunga]

The threads on this are a couple years old by now. From the guys at ProSoundWeb: "No highs, no lows ... must be Bose."

[Dave Muscato]

Geoff, I see that you're a physicist. Pretty cool I can say that IME, small drivers don't necessarily mean poor low-end - I use a 8x5" Phil Jones Bass cab (that's eight 5-inch speakers) and that thing bumps.

My parents have one of the Bose Wave radios and seem to be pretty happy with it... My dad and brother co-own a store that sells audiophile-grade audio equipment (Ariel, Theta, Parasound, etc), and that's what my dad listens to during his morning routine... I'm not saying they're the best out there, I'm just saying, he also has a pair of $18k speakers with $500/ft speaker cable, etc, and seems to think Bose makes a good product.

I agree, Geoff, that the Bose L1 sounds too good to be true. Does anybody own one? (or has anyone used one?...)

This seems to be the consensus on Bose gear, to quote another thread about PA systems:

Originally Posted by moogboy

anything by Bose is just smoke, mirrors and tricks with physics.

However, in the same thread,

Originally Posted by ric1312

Bose L1 (model 1 or 2 now)

My three piece rock band uses two. I run my vocal, bass and e drums into one and e guitar into another. We get awesome sound. Basically everything they say on the site is true. We've had nothing but great comments about our sound. Easy to set up.... The beauty of the L1 is that you can play very loud with it or turn it down lower and the sound will still be heard at the back of the room.

Makes you wonder... From what I gather, the first guy I quoted has not tried a Bose P1 system.

Where did Bose get this reputation? Is it just because they do a lot of flashy marketing? (Ever been to a Bose home theater demonstration?) If they can back it up, though, I don't really care what their marketing looks like. I know they make a lot of big claims, but it's hard to argue with someone who uses the system and says that "basically everything they say... is true" and "we've had nothing but great comments about our sound."

I think people enjoy ripping on Bose more than they'll admit. I do know, from a friend who asked Cliff, the inventor of the L1 (who licensed the design to Bose), that he designed the system because he knew it would make musicians' lives easier, and didn't care if he made "a dime off of it." He knew that standard "triple" systems (backline, monitors, front-of-house) were more trouble than they were worth, and there was a better way. (see link: http://bose.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/...044#6751067044 )

I might send a PM to the 2nd guy I quoted and see if he'll drop in on this thread....

Anybody else?

Thanks,

Dave

[Bard2dbone]

I've only heard one used for guitar. He had a POD and went into the Bose from it. It was better then I expected.

It was good enough that I would give one a test drive for sure. It worked well enough for guitar, but how about with bass? Or drums? Or vocals? Or the really scary versionL a full group?

I'd really like to know, too. But I'm such a skeptic that I think I'd only trust my own wxperience.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Here's a frequency response measurement for a Bose Acoustimass 15 setup:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

That response is quite terrible, especially the big hole in the output in the 200 Hz to 280 Hz range as well as the spikes around 5-7 kHz.

I don't think that $500/ft speaker cable adds any credence to your father's supposed expertise. (Just ribbing you).

I have been to a Bose theater demonstration at the Bose factory outlet at the Las Vegas Outlet Center. My listening experience matched most of the observations I've seen on the internet... no bass and no treble (which I've only read since listening to them). All they really tried to do was show off some of the fancy auto eq electronic correction circuits they had on board. It certainly wasn't worth the $4k they wanted for it.

[brianrost]

The percussionist in one of my bands uses one as does the sax player in another.

It's actually very easy to get the PAS to feedback, it works just like with any other system...get an open mike to close to the speaker and it feeds back. Not all stages are deep enough to allow the mikes to be placed far enough from the speakers.

The column is pretty tall and I've played gigs in rooms with ceilings too low for them.

You can use them as a general purpose PA but the intent is that each individual has his own unit.

They do work OK for bass if you have the subwoofer, I have played through one and it's OK. It's very uncolored compared to a typical bass amp.

[jondog]

I've got two Bose towers in my rehearsal room, I love them there. I do not enjoy performing with them, I like my amp better. Here's your list of advantages with my thoughts added.

- No more heavy cabs

Yes, each piece is smaller than a cab, but they do have some heft. The tower base is like an oversized cymbal case and it's heavy because it houses the amp.

- No more mixing boards (except maybe an 8-channel one for the drum kit)

No, each tower has a remote control that does level and eq for 2 channels.

- No more dealing with soundmen who would rather drink & check out your female fans than mix your set (not to mention, no more paying the soundmen)

Nope.

- No need for earplugs, even if you're in the front row

No, people needed them with your Eons?

- No need for monitors

No. I don't sing, so with wedges I don't need to stand near the singer and hear his cranked monitor. With the Bose tower radiating behind me, I have no choice.

- Set up & tear down in one minute flat

Ha! It's not instant, just quicker.

- Everything fits in the trunk of a Honda Civic

Maybe. It will all fit in your van for sure.


If you've got the $ to spend, give 'em a shot. No offense but Eons suck (I own a pair of those too), so anything you buy is a move up. For the $ you're going to spend on the Bose, you could keep your mixer and get a pretty amazing traditional pa. That's what I ended up doing. Yes it takes longer to set up, is bigger/heavier, and sometimes leaves me dependent on a soundguy, but I know I'm prepared for larger venues and the right soundguy can make it sound great.

[brianbj46]

my dad moved from a huge mackie active PA setup to two PAS L1 towers and 4 subs for his one-man show. He records his background tracks by himself at home and performs live with the bose system. I, personally, prefer the mackie SR1530 setup because (maybe just psychological) i like the big speakers, i feel like they're really pumping. however, Ear to ear, i'd say the bose really give them a run for their money, they are full and LOUD for playing music.

The real advantage comes in with fine acoustics. Vocals are freaking amazing through the bose system. They sound SO real, so live, and so perfect. When my dad played an outdoor gig, it sounded like he was talking 3 inches from your ear no matter where you would stand.
The main reason he went for the bose was the portability, and the good vocals/acoustic instrument replication.

[geshel]

Originally Posted by Geoff St. Germaine

Here's a frequency response measurement for a Bose Acoustimass 15 setup:

http://www.intellexual.net/bose.html

That response is quite terrible, especially the big hole in the output in the 200 Hz to 280 Hz range as well as the spikes around 5-7 kHz.

I don't think that $500/ft speaker cable adds any credence to your father's supposed expertise. (Just ribbing you).

I have been to a Bose theater demonstration at the Bose factory outlet at the Las Vegas Outlet Center. My listening experience matched most of the observations I've seen on the internet... no bass and no treble (which I've only read since listening to them). All they really tried to do was show off some of the fancy auto eq electronic correction circuits they had on board. It certainly wasn't worth the $4k they wanted for it.

I have a lot of negative opinions and experience w/ Bose, but, that graph isn't so damning all by itself. First, the overall response is really within a +/- 5dB window which isn't so far from what lots of (decent) speakers do these days. It also is really hard to take with much faith without knowing his test setup and equipment.

One glaring thing, he does not show the complex sum of the woofer + satellite modules. The "dip" in the crossover region is expected - if they are in phase, they will add together and create a flat response. However, this graph says nothing about the phase relationship between the two (if they are out of phase it'll be even worse than that).

No doubt, the AM15 sounds terrible by any decent hi-fi standards. Just that it's hard to get much from that graph.

(one of the worst features of their AM subs is the phase response, in terms of group delay, they are so resonant to acheive the sharp bandpass cutoffs, that their output lags input pretty severely, and also rings for a while after the input is cut off).

[rob2966]

I heard a 3-piece acoustic group (3 singers, 3 acoustic guitars) use one and it sounded pretty good. However, that was in a bar (fairly low volume) and they did not have any real bass source.

Later
Rob

[ric1312]

I use two for my rock trio. We run e guitar through one with one bass bass module. Sounds just as good as a marshall half, but without the "I can only hear the guitar beam."

The other system is 4 bass modules with an A1 packlite. We run e drums, bass , and my lead vocal through it.

The guitarist and I use pod xt lives. Though in the past I ran my bass straight in and it sounded great as well. ( I play a bongo bass so I don't have to make up for a mediocre bass with amp adjustment)

With this system what you put in is what you get out. So, if you feel you need more bass you have to either dial it in on your bass, pod/effect, or dial more in on the remote for your channel.

What this system does not deliver is exxagerated frequencies. In other words it's not going to woof and do all the unnatural stuff that you often hear traditional P.A. systems do when set up badly/too loud.

The system sounds awesome for each of these intruments, there is plenty of bass.

The, "hole in the frequency response," thing is simply not true.

We get nothing but compliments on our sound. My favorites compliment is that we are told our sound is comparable to a professionally mixed CD because it is so crisp and clear. In other words people don't get the boomy bass blast, or overamplified guitars or untelligible vocals that so often happens at clubs with regular P.A.

It does take getting used to though because it doesn't have that near field blast of a large amp or stack, even up very loud. But, it DOES get very loud. But, you really dont need it as loud because of the throw. I've read reviews where someone THOUGHT that it would be great for acoustic but not for a, "rock show." It is plenty loud enough.

I've now been using mine now for somewhere over a year.
Basically everything they say about it is true.

But, if you were to try to use one in a band that was still using an old pa system and stacks and blasting them, I don't know. It's really meant to work on it's own, or at least as a backline amp for a really large show where you would need a large pa and house sound. and by a large show I mean over 500 people.

For bass you are probably going to want 4 bass modules and an A1. I thought it was great for bass with just two at practice. Some people do forgo that and attach their own sub. But, I like the fact that up to 4 subs it's self balancing and I don't have to worry about eq adjustments.

I've literally set up both for a show, myself, and been ready to go in 20 minutes flat. That includes bringing in all my equipment. I often have to carry everything as my wife is my electric guitarist.

Best thing you can do is try the trial period. You don't think it's for you send it back. IMO it would work great as a bass amp, in any situation, if that's what you want it for. Because without putting a vocal mic into it, you would really be able to crank it and it wouldn't matter if the rest of the band was A holes that blast marshal half stacks.

Make sure to try it in larger practice size room at least. When I first got it I had it in my walk in closet size office and because it doesn't near field blast I wasn't sure if it was loud enough for a show. Boy was I wrong.

Also, they now have a model 2 available, I have the classic.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by brianrost

The percussionist in one of my bands uses one as does the sax player in another.

It's actually very easy to get the PAS to feedback, it works just like with any other system...get an open mike to close to the speaker and it feeds back. Not all stages are deep enough to allow the mikes to be placed far enough from the speakers.

The column is pretty tall and I've played gigs in rooms with ceilings too low for them.

You can use them as a general purpose PA but the intent is that each individual has his own unit.

They do work OK for bass if you have the subwoofer, I have played through one and it's OK. It's very uncolored compared to a typical bass amp.

I've found the pas to be very feedback resistant. But, some mics are better than others. I moved from a shure 58 to sennhieser 945e. I didn't like the 58 because it has a bass boost proximity effect and if you are using the system as instructed you should be right on the mic for the most gain.


I get my vocal extremely loud without feedback. I can put my vocal mic two feet in front of my tower with no feedback. I've been able to do this playing out and in our cramped two car garage where we practice.

The real trick with the pas and loud volume, is mic position. If you aim in horizontally it will be pointing right at the speaker and of course feedback...... just like if you pointed the mic at the monitors in a regular system at loud volumes.

I use what's been called the, "reverse Lemmy," I point my mic straight up and make sure my lip touches the screen.

P.S. why does everyone bring up the stupid bose radios and stereos when someone asks about the PAS? It's for a tottally different aplication, and not even built the same. The radios aren't line arrays, are they? I myself never owned a bose product before, but the L1 does what it claims beutifully.

[invader3k]

That link to the article on Bose is really old and really cliche, btw.

[Geoff St. Germaine]

Originally Posted by geshel

I have a lot of negative opinions and experience w/ Bose, but, that graph isn't so damning all by itself. First, the overall response is really within a +/- 5dB window which isn't so far from what lots of (decent) speakers do these days. It also is really hard to take with much faith without knowing his test setup and equipment.

One glaring thing, he does not show the complex sum of the woofer + satellite modules. The "dip" in the crossover region is expected - if they are in phase, they will add together and create a flat response. However, this graph says nothing about the phase relationship between the two (if they are out of phase it'll be even worse than that).

No doubt, the AM15 sounds terrible by any decent hi-fi standards. Just that it's hard to get much from that graph.

(one of the worst features of their AM subs is the phase response, in terms of group delay, they are so resonant to acheive the sharp bandpass cutoffs, that their output lags input pretty severely, and also rings for a while after the input is cut off).

Yeah, the dip may not be too bad, however I'd still question the choice of crossover frequency. IME, crossing over that high with a subwoofer leads to a subwoofer that's localizable and disrupts the entire illusion that surround sound is supposed to create. It's an problem inherent in the use of extremely small drivers in extremely small enclosures for the mains.

[Johnny Crab]

Originally Posted by brianbj46

Vocals are freaking amazing through the bose system. They sound SO real, so live, and so perfect. When my dad played an outdoor gig, it sounded like he was talking 3 inches from your ear no matter where you would stand.
The main reason he went for the bose was the portability, and the good vocals/acoustic instrument replication.

+1 mostly.

OK. Ya'll asked.
Here's what we used at events Tuesday at part of Houston's OTC week(Offshore Technology Convention). It was a long day. Imagine doing two gigs in one day with a regular PA sytem without a multi-member roadcrew. It was us and the singer's son moving gear.

Morning gig, 12~3 outdoors:

NOTES: Zoom H4 right near my wireless on the front left of stage. It goes to EVERY show and catches "those moments", low $$ ho-bird & Greco LP went with a 60%+ chance of a severe downpour predicted....


3~4:30 = teardown, load up, drive across town in convention/afternoon traffic, unload, setup for 2nd show which was from 6 to about 11 pm:


4 piece band.
Lead vocals = L1+2 bass bins
Guitar/backing vocals = L1 + 2 bass bins
Drums = L1 + 8 bass bins
Bass/backing vocals = L1 + 4 bass bins

Does it work?
As a blended group with no soundman...yes.
I still have ACME B2's and a rack of amps if/when a large place comes along. There have been points where I'm driving the bass bin amp into self protect(it doesn't shut off...it seems to clamp the level). ACME's sound EXACTLY like what you put into them IME and they where got for modeling use(Bass POD XT Live -> QSC 2402's -> four ACME B2's). The BOSE with 4 bass bins sound good near field and OK elsewhere(I've had a bassist tell me "that rig don't do you no justice man!"). To the average listener, they sound ok. I know four ACME B2's > BOSE PAS+4 bass bins but the BOSE "works" in the band.

Here is a sample of the BOSE putting out some "angry tone" that came out in that wonderful, bass-player's favorite song, Brown Eyed Girl. A guest singer stepped on the XT volume pedal shutting me off right when the "little bass part" comes in so....check cable into bass(ok) check wireless signal meter(ok) look at POD...$&#$%#&$%#$&+!@+( and run over and stomp the pedal down and hammer this out of the XT->BOSE:
http://media.putfile.com/Growl-Eyed-Girl

[ric1312]

Funny you mention the Pod volume pedal thing. I do that at least once every time I play, panic, then realize my volume pedal is just off.

Listened to the clip very nice bass sound. Not lacking anything to my ears. I think the bass bins can do more low end than some people give them credit for.

My e drummer has a kit on his roland module called, "house music, " or something like that. When he hit the kick it was like being in a club where you get that thick low end ooomph with no definition from highs. I'm gonna have to make a recording of it with my edirol, my wife started making up faux pop/rap lyrics and we laughed our asses off because it sounded like some eurotrash throwaway pop.

[SteveC]

I did a gig last night where the piano player used one. 17 piece big band, loud drums and trumpets, and I heard piano clear as anything - and her vocals - and it sounded great.

Made me rethink my bias a little.

[need4mospd]

Originally Posted by SteveC

Made me rethink my bias a little.

As a previous BOSE hater, I have also rethought my bias after actually having real LIVE experience with the unit.

We played a show on Thursday and no one in the audience seemed to care about the hundreds of soundmen saying "No highs, no lows, must be Bose". In fact we had TONS of compliments on the sound and how clear it was. All from people that had no clue what brand the PA was. No cable clutter, no monitors, no feedback, no sweaty clothes from lugging heavy cabinets, no soundman, no problems at all. The system did exactly what it was supposed to do. With all the positives, it's sure easy to overlook the negatives....

[SteveC]

I like my bass sound through a PA. I don't relly need an amp as part of my sound. The thing I have found in researching this a bit is that most guys using this for bass have 4 subs. At $3,200 for a 2 bass unit, and $999 for an additionalpair, the cost is way up there.