Can somebody please tell me what key this is in?

[joebar]

Originally Posted by tradernick

You are absolutely correct. G7 is acting as a V7 - I to Cm. It's just that Cm is not the I chord, it's the iii chord.

i guess that is the key to the whole enchilada-figuring out the i chord.
i guess i am hearing it in Cm and making the necessary adjustments and netting the same end result.
i know i will be thinking on this one all day tomorrow at work lol.

[Da Bassics]

Originally Posted by Zootsuitbass

Let your ear guide you... sing "Home".

Usually the chord you end the tune on.


Bb Minor.

How to analyze the progression?? Different question.

expelling what you mean. im green

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

how long you been playing and how hard was it for you to get this?

Started playing when I was 14 and I'm 48 now. Went to school for it, and me and my buddies joke that we paid our money, got our degrees, and the only thing it was really good for was meeting a bunch of other guys who would eventually give us gigs : )

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

also is this complicated what EL is playing or will I be able to learn it as soon as i get basic theory down

I think what joebar said is most relevant.

Originally Posted by joebar

in my head it would be an easy tune to play properly regardless of over complicating it

Just try to play over it. Sing lines over it if you are having problems getting them out on the bass. Plunk on a piano to get line ideas (that's another thing my best prof in University told me to do). In the end, you can use try Ab scale and just play through the dissonances you'll get when you hit those non-diatonic chords like G7. That's the first step, then you can adapt to the V7 - i.

There's plenty of guys who could play circles around me who wouldn't be able to analyze this and frankly wouldn't care about the analysis. That said, I'm an analysis guy so I'm glad you're thinking about it.

[Da Bassics]

Originally Posted by joebar

i guess that is the key to the whole enchilada-figuring out the i chord.
i guess i am hearing it in Cm and making the necessary adjustments and netting the same end result.
i know i will be thinking on this one all day tomorrow at work lol.

is the i chord the same as the 1? and is it Ab with a sus 2?

[Da Bassics]

Originally Posted by tradernick

Started playing when I was 14 and I'm 48 now. Went to school for it, and me and my buddies joke that we paid our money, got our degrees, and the only thing it was really good for was meeting a bumch of other guys who would eventually give us gigs : )

also is this complicated what EL is playing or will I be able to learn it as soon as i get basic theory down

I think what joebar said is most relevant.

Just try to play over it. Sing lines over it if you are having problems getting them out on the bass. Plunk on a piano to get line ideas (that's another thing my best prof in University told me to do).

There's plenty of guys who could play circles around me who wouldn't be able to analyze this and frankly wouldn't care about the analysis. That said, I'm an anlysis guy so I'm glad you're thinking about it.[/quote]
so am i. ive been told i over analyze stuff too much :smh: but ive been stuck o this for like 4 years and what makes it even worst i dont know any theory or modes nor anything :lol: its kinda foolish i even spent this much time analyzing it when i dont even know what im doing smh

[joebar]

for me, i have strong reasons and keep hearing the tonic as Cm. it works for me and i know that if i was playing this tune, i would rarely play a wrong note in the execution of it so that is all that matters.
i find it very interesting in what some others have said (these threads are manna from heaven for the knowledge nerds like me)

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

is the i chord the same as the 1? and is it Ab with a sus 2?

We use lower case Roman numerals to denote 'minor' and upper case to denote 'major'. In this progression, when I say | G7aug - Cm | is V7 - i, I am just pointing out that as joebar says, the composer has used a non-diatonic dominant 7 chord (G7 aug) to get to one of the minor diatonic chords (Cm). He does the same thing with | F7 - Bbm |. I also call this a V7 - i, this time to the ii chord (Bbm) instead of the iii chord (Cm). In the key of Ab, the F chord (the vi chord) is usually Fm; making the vi chord into a dominant 7 chord and letting it draw you to the ii chord is very common and comes from the jazz tradition (loosely). Have you ever heard of the "iii - vi - ii - V7 - I"?

[Da Bassics]

Originally Posted by joebar

for me, i have strong reasons and keep hearing the tonic as Cm. it works for me and i know that if i was playing this tune, i would rarely play a wrong note in the execution of it so that is all that matters.
i find it very interesting in what some others have said (these threads are manna from heaven for the knowledge nerds like me)

bass brethren i have no problem at all with Cmin. i told u i explored it today and its worked great. i cant lie i see exactly where you and other come from when they say this

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by joebar

for me, i have strong reasons and keep hearing the tonic as Cm. it works for me and i know that if i was playing this tune, i would rarely play a wrong note in the execution of it so that is all that matters.
i find it very interesting in what some others have said (these threads are manna from heaven for the knowledge nerds like me)

Hey, no problem, whatever works for you. Did you get a chance to play this progression, which is the logical continuation of the first part of the tune?

| Bbm7 / G7aug / | Cm7 / F7 / | Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Abmaj7 / / / |

If you did, does Ab feel like home in that context?

[Da Bassics]

Originally Posted by tradernick

We use lower case Roman numerals to denote 'minor' and upper case to denote 'major. In this progression, when I say G7aug - Cm is V7 - i, I am just pointing out that as joebar says, the composer has used a non-diatonic dominant 7 chord (G7 aug) to get to one of the diatonic chords. He does the same thing with F7 - Bbm. I also call this a V7 - i, this time to the ii chord (Bbm) instead of the iii chord (Cm). In the key of Ab, the F chord (the vi chord) is usually Fm; making the vi chord into a dominant 7 chord and letting it draw you to the ii chord is very common and comes from the jazz tradition (loosely) (have you ever heard of the "iii - vi - ii - V7 - I"?)

wow i never ephing knew this.the 2-3 days ive been on this site making these silly begginer threads ive learned so much man. smh


i hope yall arent laughing at me and getting annoyed but this is my journey and im taking it all in. even though its alot. i have to crawl before i walk even though all of you are running.

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

its kinda foolish i even spent this much time analyzing it when i dont even know what im doing smh

As you can imagine, I don't consider it foolish at all. Diatonic theory is pretty easy to learn. I find it to be worthwhile, especially as a bass player because I'm the one that's expected to know the changes and the theory (along with the keyboard player).

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

i hope yall arent laughing at me and getting annoyed but this is my journey and im taking it all in. even though its alot. i have to crawl before i walk even though all of you are running.

I seriously doubt anyone's laughing. This is one of the best things about TB and places like it. I come in here and ask dumb questions about pickups that any self respecting bassist would have figured out by the time he was 21.

[joebar]

dr-the best thing to do is outline the chord tones for each chord and then see what notes you have to support melody etc. and then from there you can decide how you want to see it/play it.
i certainly don`t claim to be right; i know that for years i learned all about modes the wrong way but still used them properly-perhaps i have been seeing things in ways that may not be correct but still got me to where i needed to go.
trader nick-
i appreciate the input without having to resort to condescension. thx man.
but i still agree to disagree at this point but am open to further debate

[joebar]

Originally Posted by tradernick

Hey, no problem, whatever works for you. Did you get a chance to play this progression, which is the logical continuation of the first part of the tune?

| Bbm7 / G7aug / | Cm7 / F7 / | Bbm7 / Eb7 / | Abmaj7 / / / |

If you did, does Ab feel like home in that context?

unless i missed something in the song, i didnt hear an Eb chord
i didnt hear the telltale ii v i that you mentioned.

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by joebar

unless i missed something in the song, i didnt hear an Eb chord
i didnt hear the telltale ii v i that you mentioned.

No, there isn't an Eb chord in the A section of the tune. I provided that progression as an example of what would happen if the composer followed the progression through and used a ii - V7 - I (in this case, Bbm7 - Eb7 - Abmaj7) to get back to the tonic chord (my version of the tonic chord, that is). What I was wondering is - if you play the progression I outlined, does Ab feel like the I chord? If it does, you may be able to feel how the Bbm7 - G7aug - Cm7 - F7 is just a loop around the ii and iii chords, using their respective (non-diatonic) dominant chords (G7aug for Cm and F7 for Bbm) to kick the progression around and around.

In the end, your ears are probably telling you exactly what to do. In post # 3 of this thread, the OP asked

Originally Posted by Da Bassics

...how did so many people [at the other site] get Ab...

so I am assuming that there are some others who hear it the way I do. It seems the OP hears it your way too! But I like it when people say "I'm sticking to my analysis until I can hear what you're claiming". Don't worry, I had plenty of these when we were in school. You should see the classical guys. They get seriously non-classical when the jazzers come up to them and start telling them about their music : )

When you have a 104 pound oboe player yelling at you about the Neapolitan 6th in Mozart's 'Eine Kleine Nachtmusik', you know you're in a real theory fight : )

[joebar]

trader
i totally know what you are talking about with that progression and see how you got there. that is a very neat approach to the chord progression
i just approach it from another angle and arrive there anyways.
i have been studying jazz intensely for awhile now and see it the way you are explaining it and in that way Ab feels homey but i still want to hear it Cm and make the adjustments. that is as easy as breathing for me
i suppose if you extend each chord far enough you arrive at the ii v i that you spoke of. i love it.
but this isn`t pure jazz either and because of that i feel like if we keep the tonic Cm it serves the song enough to get it across

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by joebar

i have been studying jazz intensely for awhile now and see it the way you are explaining it and in that way Ab feels homey but i still want to hear it Cm and make the adjustments. that is as easy as breathing for me
i suppose if you extend each chord far enough you arrive at the ii v i that you spoke of. i love it.
but this isn`t pure jazz either and because of that i feel like if we keep the tonic Cm it serves the song enough to get it across

Well, as my (serious) jazz friends like to tell me, 'there are no wrong notes'. Your ears are clearly telling you what's right and what's not and if that's the way you codify it, great.

For another great example of this same type of progression (where the I chord is used as a V7 to the IV chord), check out "Just The Two Of Us' by Bill Withers (check the Grover Washington version). It presents some of the same problems. And it's in the same (relative) key!

[joebar]

Originally Posted by tradernick

Well, as my (serious) jazz friends like to tell me, 'there are no wrong notes'. Your ears are clearly telling you what's right and what's not and if that's the way you codify it, great.

For another great example of this same type of progression (where the I chord is used as a V7 to the IV chord), check out "Just The Two Of Us' by Bill Withers (check the Grover Washington version). It presents some of the same problems. And it's in the same (relative) key!

if the key is Ab in the EL tune...

isn`t music great?

sure beats `which is the best bass for metal`?

[tradernick]

Originally Posted by joebar

if the key is Ab in the EL tune...

Haha, yes exactly. If.

Originally Posted by joebar

isn`t music great?

sure beats `which is the best bass for metal`?

Ah well, even the metal guys have their (gear) theory arguments, and taken just as seriously, I'm sure. I admit to having some Ozzy on my gym playlist : )

[MarkMgibson]

Originally Posted by tradernick

Started playing when I was 14 and I'm 48 now. Went to school for it, and me and my buddies joke that we paid our money, got our degrees, and the only thing it was really good for was meeting a bunch of other guys who would eventually give us gigs : )

I think what joebar said is most relevant.

Just try to play over it. Sing lines over it if you are having problems getting them out on the bass. Plunk on a piano to get line ideas (that's another thing my best prof in University told me to do). In the end, you can use try Ab scale and just play through the dissonances you'll get when you hit those non-diatonic chords like G7. That's the first step, then you can adapt to the V7 - i.

There's plenty of guys who could play circles around me who wouldn't be able to analyze this and frankly wouldn't care about the analysis. That said, I'm an analysis guy so I'm glad you're thinking about it.

This song is quite simple if just play over the changes (unlike the last key sig debate), I picked up a guitar and played through those changes, and Ab was the obvious choice. Try sticking to a single key, and just using the scales of that key. Ab- major scale, blues scale, major pentatonic scale - work perfectly over that song. Try doing it with Cm or Bbm and good luck. The song doesn't even have a minor feel in my opinion, but you know what they say about opinions.

[megafiddle]

I am getting a little better at hearing the changes after reading all this.

The first part of the song ends on an Ab7 and the second part then begins
on the Db. It sure sounds like it's in Ab at that point. Those two chords are
part of the common I I7 IV, and even sound kind of classic there.

What I have trouble doing is maintaining that frame of key reference when
it goes back to the first part. The Cm seems to want to grab me the same
way that the Ab did.

I still have to listen more.