Can't hear vocals for auditions

[amos]

Before I joined the band I'm currently playing, the guys bought a small Phonic PA setup for $400. It really really sucks. We don't play very loud, but we do rehearse rock 'n roll in a very, very small room. All we are using the PA for is auditioning singers, but they can't hear themselves and strain their voices so they can be heard and end up not sounding as good as they can. It's supposedly a 220W per side mixer/amp but the speakers are 8 ohms. It was clipping bad when they had it set up in stereo so I set it to bridged mode and daisy chained the cabs...this kept it from clipping (increasing head room) but the mic is still totally hot cause we have to crank it and the max it will go without feeding back is not nearly loud enough.

We're curious if we can just look for maybe a more powerful Peavey PA head and still use the speakers or should we scrap the whole system?

If I had been in the band, for $400 we would have hit the used market for a PA...

EDIT: Specs:
220W + 220W / 4 ohm stereo power amplifier for Main L/R or Main/Monitor (Bridge mono, 440W / 8 ohm)

[anderbass]

The addition of dedicated vocal monitors or even just having the vocalist wear headphones should help a bunch. In the small (loud) room your describing, your PA speakers would probably work out allot better if you simply place at least one in front of your vocalist, tilted up towards his face just like a dedicated vocal monitor would be. Another thing thats tricky about small rooms is finding away to minimise vocal mic feedback by seriously experimenting with alternative PA/monitor speaker and vocalist locations, careful selection and use of any reverbs or effects used, and realistic eq settings. (try starting with all PA tone knobs/eq settings centered or flat, and then cut or reduce whatever frequencies cause feedback at your higher volume settings). I probably wouldn't be micing anything else besides the vocalist in that small room either.

Getting your drummer to use a pair of "Hot-sticks" would probably reduce his volume enough to automatically trigger everyone else to turn their amps down a bit for another huge remedy to your situation...

[bluestarbass]

You could also try a mic that wasnt so hot. I demo'd some of the higher end EV dynamics and I was pretty impressed. They had a really narrow polar pattern and would only pick up someone singing, nothing else. It was the one with the flat head if that helps. I cant remeber the model name.

[Deacon_Blues]

Hope you use real speaker cables, not instrument cables. I have seen, (and actually used, but long time ago) instrument cables as speaker cables, and what happened to us was that the cables caused the signal to clip too early. Made a huge difference when we found out the issue and switched to speaker cables.

200 watts should be enough, unless you have scooped the mid and boosted the bass... Do exactly the opposite and you should be fine.

[amos]

Yeah my suggestion was to use one of the PA wedge-cabs as just that, a vocal monitor. We are running vocals ONLY through the PA. We are using speaker cables, but the ones that came with with the PA look like pieces of ****. I will try a different mic and cutting the bass on the EQ.

[McHaven]

Turn down the amps.

[Passinwind]

What kind of EQ capabilities do you have to work with?

[theshadow2001]

no amount of technical work is going to lead to a solution to this problem I don't think. A cheap and quiet PA is just that.

The only way to do this is turn your band down to the point where the singer can almost be heard without a PA. Then mic him up.

The hot rods or hot sticks or whatever the kids are calling them these days is the first place to start. Get that drummer to play as quietly as possible. After that get everyone to turn down. Even if the drummer is a bit on the loud side and you guys are a little on the quiet side it might still work. If not you could go down the line of putting towels over the drums to bring the volume down but the drummer might not be to happy about that. A good drummer should be able to give good tone from very quiet to very loud but I don't know how many drummers are actually capable of doing this. If you guys are still struggling then it's time for a new PA

Besides whatever about the singers not hearing themselves if you guys can't then how are you meant to audition them?

I wouldn't look at any more singers until you guys get this sorted.

If you do achieve this. I think everyone will agree that this new lower volume for practicing will be better than before.

[amos]

Originally Posted by theshadow2001

no amount of technical work is going to lead to a solution to this problem I don't think. A cheap and quiet PA is just that.

The only way to do this is turn your band down to the point where the singer can almost be heard without a PA. Then mic him up.

The hot rods or hot sticks or whatever the kids are calling them these days is the first place to start. Get that drummer to play as quietly as possible. After that get everyone to turn down. Even if the drummer is a bit on the loud side and you guys are a little on the quiet side it might still work. If not you could go down the line of putting towels over the drums to bring the volume down but the drummer might not be to happy about that. A good drummer should be able to give good tone from very quiet to very loud but I don't know how many drummers are actually capable of doing this. If you guys are still struggling then it's time for a new PA

Besides whatever about the singers not hearing themselves if you guys can't then how are you meant to audition them?

I wouldn't look at any more singers until you guys get this sorted.

If you do achieve this. I think everyone will agree that this new lower volume for practicing will be better than before.

We can hear them, just not very well. We have turned down our amps. It's not that we play loud, it's that the room we practice in, is just a little bigger than my bedroom. About 14x10 or 14x12, so the drums are loud even though he's not a hard hitting drummer. The solutions are looking like a louder PA or a bigger room or both, though I won't know till later this week. And I will suggest to the drummer that he try to use hot sticks. Thanks for the replys gentlemen.

[theshadow2001]

Originally Posted by amos

We can hear them, just not very well. We have turned down our amps. It's not that we play loud, it's that the room we practice in, is just a little bigger than my bedroom. About 14x10 or 14x12, so the drums are loud even though he's not a hard hitting drummer. The solutions are looking like a louder PA or a bigger room or both, though I won't know till later this week. And I will suggest to the drummer that he try to use hot sticks. Thanks for the replys gentlemen.

We recently practiced in our drummers bedroom because it's too cold for the garage. This room is tiny and there's a full band of drums bass and two guitars. Our PA which is around the 200 watts can more than adequately deal with the vocals using only one speaker. Get the drummer some hotrods see if it makes a difference. A set of headphones to the line out (you may or may not need a headphone amp) is your cheapest and less hassle solution that I see.

[amos]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

What kind of EQ capabilities do you have to work with?

Low, Mid, High on each input, then a 7-band slider EQ for the whole channel. I'm running it bridged because running each channel separately, it clips ridiculously easy...it seems running it in bridge mode gave us a little more peak room, but not much clean head room.



The mic is a Beta58 cable is XLR to 1/4"

We do have some other mics, but I don't know off the top of my head what kind they are.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by amos

The mic is a Beta58 cable is XLR to 1/4"

Have you tried a cable with an XLR on both ends? You want to run that 58 into a low impedance input! This will make a hugely dramatic difference in many cases.

[amos]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Have you tried a cable with an XLR on both ends? This will make a hugely dramatic difference in many cases.

Passinwind: I was wondering about that after looking at the picture and typing the words "XLR to 1/4" (I had to think about how it was setup to remember that. The next thought that occured to me was "I wonder if he'll tell me to use an xlr-to-xlr cable Thanks

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by amos

Passinwind: I was wondering about that after looking at the picture and typing the words "XLR to 1/4" (I had to think about how it was setup to remember that. The next thought that occured to me was "I wonder if he'll tell me to use an xlr-to-xlr cable Thanks

As I said in my edit above, you either need to run into the low-Z (XLR) input, or use an impedance transformer as a workaround. I'd put money on this being a huge piece of the puzzle...

[amos]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

As I said in my edit above, you either need to run into the low-Z (XLR) input, or use an impedance transformer as a workaround. I'd put money on this being a huge piece of the puzzle...

So I talked to Matt, he said they have tried running xlr-xlr without a noticable difference. There is also a "hi-z" and "low-z" 1/4" inputs on the mixer. I'll try it with xlr-xlr cable next time I'm up there, just to make sure.

Edit: How we've been setting it, is the Master is dimed, and the level is 3/4" the way up. with the EQ flat.

[Marshall Hiwatt]

You might try turning the master up quite a bit more ( what the hell maybe all the way up) and turn the mic channels down for better head room before clipping. It's like trying to push a lot of water through a small pipe with the master low and the channels way up. That is the most novice way people want to operate the console.

Best of Luck!

Ace

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by Marshall Hiwatt

You might try turning the master up quite a bit more ( what the hell maybe all the way up)

Dimed = 10/10ths, all the way up.

Sounds like a lemon, Amos. What are the details on the speakers?

[amos]

Originally Posted by Marshall Hiwatt

You might try turning the master up quite a bit more ( what the hell maybe all the way up) and turn the mic channels down for better head room before clipping. It's like trying to push a lot of water through a small pipe with the master low and the channels way up. That is the most novice way people want to operate the console.

Best of Luck!

Ace

Yeah as per my last post, the master is dimed, the input level at 3/4 the way up.

[amos]

Yeah the thing was weird. The low-impedence (XLR) mic cable helped, but when you sang into it it would hit the clip limiter without the signal LEDs going...there's something wrong with it.

For now, our new singer (no more auditions!!) brought over a mackie 12-channel and a RMX1450...holy smokes what a difference! We are using the same Phonic speakers...8 ohms, 200W power handling.

The only thing now is that I think I'm imagining my rig not getting full power or something, because it doesn't seem like it's at the normal volume at my usual settings when he's singing. Matt also got his new HIWATT DR-103 today (it kills), so we are juicing the circuit pretty hard...when all three of us are working our magic the lights dim, but it stops when Jeff isn't singing. Am I imagining the bass volume issue because of matt's new tube amp and the vocals actually being loud, or could that be a real issue? I usually don't have a problem pushing my Aguilar 1x12s to their limit, but tonight...makes me wonder about gigs, as I've yet to play on stage with vocals in this band. I see a Schroeder is in my future.