Carrying a knife as part of gigging equipment? UK TBers help!

[Fassa Albrecht]

Does anyone know whether I could carry a small pocketknife to gigs with me...AS LONG as it's in my (locked) clarinet/Shergold case?

It's just I've bought a small pocketknife and sometimes use it to trim clarinet reeds and use it also as a wire clipper for bass strings.

[Planets Collide]

If you can't, then the United Kingdom is officially the dumbest country on earth. I'd imagine there would be restrictions on size and type of knife, but a small Swiss-army type knife with a blade under 4" would be ok. I carry a Leatherman tool pretty much every day and its incredibly useful.

[anderbass]

Take a look through some of these:
http://www.google.com/search?sourcei...et+knife+UK%2e

[Fassa Albrecht]

Originally Posted by Planets Collide

If you can't, then the United Kingdom is officially the dumbest country on earth. I'd imagine there would be restrictions on size and type of knife, but a small Swiss-army type knife with a blade under 4" would be ok. I carry a Leatherman tool pretty much every day and its incredibly useful.

Unfortunately in Newcastle (where I am right now) there is a massive knife campaign to reduce the number of people carrying knifes for criminal activity. Unfortunately this means that even people carrying knives for legitimate reasons are also increasingly pressurised by police.

[Pilgrim]

If it's in your tool kit or gig bag, who's to know?

Just don't carry a Bowie knife. A Leatherman tool is a good suggestion, and there are other good combo tools out there.

[Fassa Albrecht]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

If it's in your tool kit or gig bag, who's to know?

Just don't carry a Bowie knife. A Leatherman tool is a good suggestion, and there are other good combo tools out there.

There's always that one chance that my bag might get searched....but otherwise yeah.

[Darkstrike]

Around here, I believe your not allowed to carry a knife around if its over 1 inch.

[silverburst]

I would think that if you have a good reason, like using it as a tool, it should not be a problem. But I am not a lawyer.

[ZonGuy]

First they took your guns. Then they took your knives.

Soon they will be coming for all your amps over 50 watts.

Had a business associate from the UK out to my ranch. We drank good wine and went through a lot of ammo (12 guage, 30-06, .357). He went home a happy man.

[Tsal]

We have a similar legislation around this corner of the EU. If it's in your instrument case, you should be fine, especially if you can prove you're going to a practice/gig. There has to be a proper need for the knife to be counted as a tool, and if you are a performing musician with a need for instrument maintenance, it does count as one.

However, do not carry it in your pocket or especially anywhere where it's visible. Even though it's pretty difficult to get searched by the cops at random, some outsider might see you use the knife and then notify the authorities that you are carrying one, as he doesn't know why you have it around. Also, multitools like Leatherman count as knives under the legislation, as long as they have a blade.

[Depth_Charge]

How would anyone outside the UK know whether you're legally allowed to carry a pocket knife. Why not call the cops and ask them?

Or better still, just go buy the proper tools for the job and stop running the razor's edge with the law and you should have no problems at all. . .

[Deacon_Blues]

I don't about the laws in UK, not even sure about ours here either, but I think carrying a knife (other than a swiss foldable knife that many people often carry with them) for no apparent reason is illegal here. A knife is a tool, and should be allowed to be used as a tool whenever needed. A toolbag you bring to gigs would not be well equipped without a knife (of any kind).

[fenderhutz]

You are in England, not like you'll get shot for it.

[varunkapahi]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_knife

it is illegal to carry knives of any type in the UK, without good reason, except for folding knives with a cutting edge of 3 inches or less[1]. Folding knives with blades of 3 inches or less may be carried so long as the blade is not capable of being opened automatically (either by gravity or mechanism e.g. flick and gravity knives), although a person behaving aggressively and in possession of any knife is likely to be in greater trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_l...United_Kingdom

United Kingdom

The UK and the United States share a common origin as to the right to bear arms, which is the 1689 Bill of Rights.[2] However, over the course of the 20th century, the UK gradually implemented tighter regulation of the civilian ownership of firearms through the enactment of the 1968, 1988, 1994 and 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts[3] leading to the current outright ban on the ownership of all automatic, and most self loading, firearms in the UK. As guns became a rarer and rarer commodity, culminating in the outright ban on pistols in 1997, knives became the preferred weapon for criminals. (Note that Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own legislative powers and consequently not all UK legislation applies in these countries.)

In the UK, the main knife legislation is found in the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988, but certain types of knife are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (ROWA) 1959 (amended 1961), the relevant section of the latter being Section 1:

(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire or lends or gives to any other person—

(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a “flick knife” or “flick gun”; or
(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a “gravity knife”,

shall be guilty of an offence [...]

Subsection 2 also makes it illegal to import knives of this type. As a result it is (almost) impossible to obtain such a knife without either committing or abetting an offence. The above legislation does not refer to possession of such knives other than possession for the purpose of sale or hire; it is therefore not illegal per se to merely possess such a knife.

The CJA 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, section 139 being the most important:

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

The phrase "good reason" in subsection 4 is intended to allow for "common sense" possession of knives, so that it is legal to carry a knife if there is a bona fide reason to do so. Subsection 5 gives some specific examples of bona fide reasons: a knife for use at work (e.g. a chef's knife), as part of a national costume (e.g. a sgian dubh for the Scottish national costume), or for religious reasons (e.g. a Sikh Kirpan).

The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility; however, even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76 mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It is a common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply, but the wording of the Criminal Justice Act does not mention locking and the matter becomes a question as to the definition of "folding pocket knife". In the case of R. v Desmond Garcia Deegan (1998) in the Court of Appeal of England and Wales, the ruling that 'folding' was intended to mean 'non-locking' was upheld. As the only higher court in England and Wales is the House of Lords the only way this ruling could be overturned is by a dissenting ruling by the Court of Appeal, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords or by Act of Parliament.

The same Act (as amended 1996) also covers the possession of knives within school premises:

(1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Any person who has an offensive weapon within the meaning of section 1 of the M1 Prevention of Crime Act 1953 with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.

(This is followed by subsection 4 which gives the same specific excuses as subsection 139(5) with the addition of "for educational purposes".) This would appear to imply that all legislation on knives in public applies similarly to school premises, and therefore a folding pocket knife under 3" in length would be considered legal.

The same Act (as amended 1996) also imposes an age restriction on the sale of knives:

(1) Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence [...]
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to—

(a) any knife, knife blade or razor blade, [...]

(Exceptions follow for safety razor blades, so only cut-throat razors are affected.)

British courts have in the past taken the marketing of a particular brand of knife into account when considering whether an otherwise legal folding knife was carried as an offensive weapon. A knife which is marketed as "tactical", "military", "special ops", etc. could therefore carry an extra liability. The Knives Act 1997 now restricts the marketing of knives as offensive weapons and thus it is much less likely that such marketing could be used as evidence against a defendant.

Although English law insists that it is the responsibility of the prosecution to provide evidence proving a crime has been committed, an individual must provide evidence to prove that they had a bona fide reason for carrying a knife (if this is the case). While this may appear to be a reversal of the usual burden of proof, technically the prosecution has already proven the case (prima facie) by establishing that a knife was being carried in a public place.

[Tsal]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

I don't about the laws in UK, not even sure about ours here either, but I think carrying a knife (other than a swiss foldable knife that many people often carry with them) for no apparent reason is illegal here.

Sam, Swiss foldable multitool/knife thingies are also illegal to carry in Finland. According to the latest law concerning edged weapons, anything with a sharp blade is considered a weapon, no matter the size or shape - unless you have a good reason to have it around as a tool, of course.

I know this both from discussing the latest law at the local knifesmith boards, and also from personal experience, since a friend of mine got his Leatherman removed by the cops and fined for carrying it - he had forgot it was on his belt when he headed to the pub for an after-work pint.

[Joel S.]

Yes, I ALWAYS carry a pocket knife on me. It's pretty scary looking actually:


My state's law says anything under 3.5" is legal, that blade is 3.16". It's come in very VERY handy, from removing battery covers, to cutting tape and zip ties, to scaring off people who have stupid requests. It's part of my gig "toolkit."

[JKT]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocket_knife

it is illegal to carry knives of any type in the UK, without good reason, except for folding knives with a cutting edge of 3 inches or less[1]. Folding knives with blades of 3 inches or less may be carried so long as the blade is not capable of being opened automatically (either by gravity or mechanism e.g. flick and gravity knives), although a person behaving aggressively and in possession of any knife is likely to be in greater trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knife_l...United_Kingdom

United Kingdom

The UK and the United States share a common origin as to the right to bear arms, which is the 1689 Bill of Rights.[2] However, over the course of the 20th century, the UK gradually implemented tighter regulation of the civilian ownership of firearms through the enactment of the 1968, 1988, 1994 and 1997 Firearms (Amendment) Acts[3] leading to the current outright ban on the ownership of all automatic, and most self loading, firearms in the UK. As guns became a rarer and rarer commodity, culminating in the outright ban on pistols in 1997, knives became the preferred weapon for criminals. (Note that Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own legislative powers and consequently not all UK legislation applies in these countries.)

In the UK, the main knife legislation is found in the Criminal Justice Act (CJA) 1988, but certain types of knife are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act (ROWA) 1959 (amended 1961), the relevant section of the latter being Section 1:

(1) Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale or hire, or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire or lends or gives to any other person—

(a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a “flick knife” or “flick gun”; or
(b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring, lever, or other device, sometimes known as a “gravity knife”,

shall be guilty of an offence [...]

Subsection 2 also makes it illegal to import knives of this type. As a result it is (almost) impossible to obtain such a knife without either committing or abetting an offence. The above legislation does not refer to possession of such knives other than possession for the purpose of sale or hire; it is therefore not illegal per se to merely possess such a knife.

The CJA 1988 mainly relates to carrying knives in public places, section 139 being the most important:

(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.
(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.
(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

The phrase "good reason" in subsection 4 is intended to allow for "common sense" possession of knives, so that it is legal to carry a knife if there is a bona fide reason to do so. Subsection 5 gives some specific examples of bona fide reasons: a knife for use at work (e.g. a chef's knife), as part of a national costume (e.g. a sgian dubh for the Scottish national costume), or for religious reasons (e.g. a Sikh Kirpan).

The special exception which exists in the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (s139) for folding knives (pocket knives) is another "common sense" measure accepting that some small knives are carried for general utility; however, even a folding pocket knife of less than 3" (76 mm) may still be considered an offensive weapon if carried or used for that purpose. It is a common belief that a folding knife must be non-locking for this provision to apply, but the wording of the Criminal Justice Act does not mention locking and the matter becomes a question as to the definition of "folding pocket knife". In the case of R. v Desmond Garcia Deegan (1998) in the Court of Appeal of England and Wales, the ruling that 'folding' was intended to mean 'non-locking' was upheld. As the only higher court in England and Wales is the House of Lords the only way this ruling could be overturned is by a dissenting ruling by the Court of Appeal, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords or by Act of Parliament.

The same Act (as amended 1996) also covers the possession of knives within school premises:

(1) Any person who has an article to which section 139 of this Act applies with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
(2) Any person who has an offensive weapon within the meaning of section 1 of the M1 Prevention of Crime Act 1953 with him on school premises shall be guilty of an offence.
(3) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under subsection (1) or (2) above to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article or weapon with him on the premises in question.

(This is followed by subsection 4 which gives the same specific excuses as subsection 139(5) with the addition of "for educational purposes".) This would appear to imply that all legislation on knives in public applies similarly to school premises, and therefore a folding pocket knife under 3" in length would be considered legal.

The same Act (as amended 1996) also imposes an age restriction on the sale of knives:

(1) Any person who sells to a person under the age of sixteen years an article to which this section applies shall be guilty of an offence [...]
(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to—

(a) any knife, knife blade or razor blade, [...]

(Exceptions follow for safety razor blades, so only cut-throat razors are affected.)

British courts have in the past taken the marketing of a particular brand of knife into account when considering whether an otherwise legal folding knife was carried as an offensive weapon. A knife which is marketed as "tactical", "military", "special ops", etc. could therefore carry an extra liability. The Knives Act 1997 now restricts the marketing of knives as offensive weapons and thus it is much less likely that such marketing could be used as evidence against a defendant.

Although English law insists that it is the responsibility of the prosecution to provide evidence proving a crime has been committed, an individual must provide evidence to prove that they had a bona fide reason for carrying a knife (if this is the case). While this may appear to be a reversal of the usual burden of proof, technically the prosecution has already proven the case (prima facie) by establishing that a knife was being carried in a public place.

Coming soon:

No rocks bigger than a golf ball are to be carried in the fist


No sticks longer 12 inches can be carried farther than 50 feet from the nearest open campfire

Beeping your horn angrily at another motorist will be considered an assault.

JKT


Beeping your horn angrily at another motorist will be considered an assault

[Joe Gress]

I carry a pocket knife almost every day. It's a buck something. I keep it nice and sharp, and it comes in handy more times than it gets in the way. Why UK must you be so silly?

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by joeinsprings

Why UK must you be so silly?

Mainly because people keep getting stabbed.

[syciprider]

Who defines "good reason to carry a knife"? Is it clearly explained elsewhere in the law? If not then you can probably argue that your profession gives you a good reason to have amulti tool. But I don't live in the UK.