The Chicken or The Lemon Song

JacoLesFlea · #1 08-19-2006, 09:52 PM

I have been listening to both of these and really enjoy them...I can play bits and pieces of both....but am wondering if I was to pick one to really study and learn it which would be the most difficult. My personal guess would be Chicken...it seems every time I listen to it and tune out all other instruments I hear a new note from Jaco everytime....the lemon song has some great lines but they seem to repeat themselves alot..What do you guys think? Out of these two bass lines which is the most difficult to get down.

Jazzin' · #2 08-19-2006, 11:06 PM

Why not learn both? What you should really learn are the chord changes to each song and the style of playing of each bassist. That way you can create/impovise your own basslines which are similar to the orginals but not the same. Personally, I'm not a big fan of memorising specific basslines. That is what I would do.

The Golden Boy · #3 08-20-2006, 12:03 AM

Who cares what's more difficult? I don't know The Chicken. I don't know what's going on in it.

I do know The Lemon Song. there's a lot of stuff going on there- but it's a "simple" blues song. What JPJ can teach you is a lot of taste timing and note choice. I wouldn't get too wrapped up about copying exactly what he does- as long as you can get what he's doing, you're on the right track.

Recently I was trying to teach Junior some Billy Duffy guitar lines. If I didn't tell him exactly what to play he couldn't improvise. He doesn't understand why what's going on works with whatever is going on.

Listen to what is going on, figure out WHY they're doing what they're doing, and that'll do you 100x better than merely copying what they're doing.

Jeff Moote · #4 08-20-2006, 12:11 AM

I agree with the others that you should listen to both, and just figure out what is going on. Both tunes can teach you a lot, and they are different enough that you will be getting two different lessons. While I agree with the sentiment of some folks around here that you learn more from understanding a song and building your own lines, there is a lot to be said for learning great basslines note for note. It builds your transcription skills, and allows you to really get inside the head of the bassist who originally played it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacoLesFlea

My personal guess would be Chicken...it seems every time I listen to it and tune out all other instruments I hear a new note from Jaco everytime.

Which recording are you using, the Birthday Concert or the one on Invitation? I personally like the choruses on Invitation better, and have learned 2 or 3 of them, but what you say is correct. There is always a little more to what Jaco is doing. It's not always more notes, but little things you pick up on each time. Just keep working on it.

BOOCAKE4U · #5 08-20-2006, 12:43 AM

learn them both, combine them into a medley, and you can call it The (wait for it) Lemon Chicken Song

Robbiethebassis · #6 08-20-2006, 12:52 AM

JPJ is my master, so I guess you know my choice.

JacoLesFlea · #7 08-20-2006, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BOOCAKE4U

learn them both, combine them into a medley, and you can call it The (wait for it) Lemon Chicken Song

Baryonyx · #8 08-20-2006, 05:33 AM

I really like the version of The Chicken from The Birthday Concert. Jaco really knows those chords, and you can hear how comortable he is playing over them. His confidence shines through as you pick up on all the little nuances of the groove he's making. If you can learn the progression of the tune and really think about the notes jaco is using there, you can get a really cool, individual working of the song.

You know my choice, The Lemon song does nothing for me.

morf · #9 08-20-2006, 06:36 AM

For The Lemon Song, I learned the first part by heart, then I just improvise in the same way the first part goes pretty much. It works fairly well although I still have a hard time playing it as fast as JPJ.

JimK · #10 08-20-2006, 12:36 PM

Love 'em both.

FWIW, both are pretty standard Blues/R&B changes..."The Chicken" may be a vehicle that allows for more 'freedom' & interpretation.

Bruce Lindfield · #11 08-21-2006, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimK

Love 'em both.

FWIW, both are pretty standard Blues/R&B changes..."The Chicken" may be a vehicle that allows for more 'freedom' & interpretation.

Isn't this just the difference between a Blues or Rock musician and a Jazz musician?

So - a huge amount of Jazz is based on the Blues and you can find a large number of Jazz tunes that are based on Blues changes - so Charlie Parker wrote many tunes based on Blues - like Billy's Bounce - and things like Mingus' "Porkpie Hat" and Oliver Nelson's "Stolen Moments" are based on simple Blues changes but sound more "sophisticated", due to what the musicians do with that starting point.

The most famous Jazz album ever - Kind of Blue - is obviously based on the Blues, but again adds Jazz sophistication.

So - to get back to the original pieces mentioned - this is what makes Jaco such a great player - i.e. that he was steeped in Jazz extended harmonic vocabulary and was able to apply this to anything he did - adding in alternate chords/substitutions, pedals , alternate scales - like whole/half diminished etc. etc.

Whereas Rock/Blues musicians tend to stick to Blues scales and don't embellish so much with alterations.

JimK · #12 08-21-2006, 04:26 AM

Bruce-
I don't disagree.

Bruce Lindfield · #13 08-21-2006, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

Which recording are you using, the Birthday Concert or the one on Invitation? I personally like the choruses on Invitation better, and have learned 2 or 3 of them, but what you say is correct. There is always a little more to what Jaco is doing. It's not always more notes, ....

That's right - it's not more notes - Jaco will sometimes lay out completely, which a Rock bassist would never do - it's really about finding different notes, different scales, different resolutions, different rhythmic approaches etc. etc.

So - this is how I know that Jaco was a great bass player and I'm not!!

If I play the Chicken, I'm soon playing repetitive lines, running out of new ideas after several choruses...

Whereas, I've heard several very long versions of the Chicken with Jaco and at his best he's always bursting with new ideas and non-repetitive lines - no matter how long it goes on ...

cowsgomoo · #14 08-21-2006, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JacoLesFlea

I have been listening to both of these and really enjoy them...I can play bits and pieces of both....but am wondering if I was to pick one to really study and learn it which would be the most difficult. My personal guess would be Chicken...it seems every time I listen to it and tune out all other instruments I hear a new note from Jaco everytime....the lemon song has some great lines but they seem to repeat themselves alot..What do you guys think? Out of these two bass lines which is the most difficult to get down.

learn and study them both.. there are different things to learn from both, so it seems pointless to restrict yourself to just studying one unless you have a terminal illness or somehow otherwise limited for time

the Lemon song is a blues but it's a few steps beyond wiggling pentatonic minor blues boxes... there's chromatic runs, mixing of major/minor (or mixolydian/minor), arpeggios, slides, use of open strings to facilitate position changes, loads of syncopation, use of a wide range of notes (from low E to 12th fret G)... worth a study

JimK · #15 08-21-2006, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

If I play the Chicken, I'm soon playing repetitive lines, running out of new ideas after several choruses...

...couple of choruses for me.

Dbassmon · #16 08-21-2006, 01:34 PM

Building a repertoire of approaches and harmonic ideas requires transcribing lots o music. JPJ and Jaco are both wonderful for different reasons and both have much to teach you. Whether it's extended harmonic possibilities and rediculous technique and a melodic sense as in the case of Jaco, or great rock rhythm section playing a cool note choices in the case of JPJ, it's all good. As soon as your done with those tunes learn Liberty City and Whole lotta Love. After that......Barbari Coast and Harlequin etc, etc etc.

JacoLesFlea · #17 08-22-2006, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dbassmon

Building a repertoire of approaches and harmonic ideas requires transcribing lots o music. JPJ and Jaco are both wonderful for different reasons and both have much to teach you. Whether it's extended harmonic possibilities and rediculous technique and a melodic sense as in the case of Jaco, or great rock rhythm section playing a cool note choices in the case of JPJ, it's all good. As soon as your done with those tunes learn Liberty City and Whole lotta Love. After that......Barbari Coast and Harlequin etc, etc etc.

I learned Ramble On and What is And What Should Never Be.... over the weekend....

IronMaiden · #18 08-22-2006, 11:39 PM

I say learn both.

It's basicly a blues progression on The Lemon Song and it's an improv, which I'm pretty sure Led Zeppelin never did the exact thing twice.

MikeyFingers · #19 08-23-2006, 02:07 PM

^The Chicken is mostly improv too. They follow the same chord progression, but the bass line is always a little different.

tappingtrance · #20 08-24-2006, 06:43 AM

the lemon song is about 8 choruses of some of the best playing on bass ever. it is totally different than the chicken - there is a real good transcription of the lemon song available -take a chorus a week and learn it, play it with the record to get the nuance and you will be a better player for it.,