Classical Guitar Strings

Bongolation · #1 05-08-2011, 11:43 AM

I'm back on my search for a serviceable classical guitar for doing some nouvelle scene stuff and have noticed something that strikes me as odd:

Everyone seems to be griping about bad strings -- spontaneous breaking, not staying in tune, etc, etc. And this with "good" string brands, too.

I've never owned a classical before, so can someone with some experience give me a primer? Is this normal?

As always, many thanks for any good data...

**rhino333** · #2 05-08-2011, 12:55 PM

First, let me preface my comments with my background. I majored in music in college and classical guitar was my main instrument. I think being studying classical guitar actually lends to playing bass.

I have used a variety of strings as my technique, instrument and sound changed. I have never had a problem with "good strings" staying in tune, breaking, etc. This is usually due to either a problem with the guitar, the technique of the player or using the wrong string for the guitar and/or playing style of that player.

In most cases, the guitar manufacturer will recommend the type (not brand) of string to use on their guitar.

Most experienced players will use either a "high"/"hard" tension string on their instrument. Those have less "give" than lower tensions strings (which can actually feel kind of "floppy") and usually react more quickly to the finger stroke. They are usually louder than lower tension strings as well. My preferred strings are Savarez 520J and Augustine Blue Label, but I have used others in a pinch.

If just starting out, I'd recommend a nice "medium" tension string, but I'd still go for a "better name" brand.

JTE · #3 05-08-2011, 02:59 PM

In my experience managing a guitar store for 11 years, there are some issues with the D string breaking spontaneously but not others. The D string has the smallest core thread and the wrap wire is very fine too. So, if the saddle is rough at all, it will tend to saw through the wrap and into the core. As rhino333 says, there is more difference in the material stability of good classical guitar strings compared to less expensive ones, than there is when comparing bass strings (or electric guitar strings for that matter).

In addition to the Savarez and the Augustine (we sold a lot of the Augustines when the local university finally offered a real classical guitar performance curriculum), D'Addario Pro Arté strings are also very good and very consistent.

John

Bongolation · #4 05-08-2011, 03:01 PM

I've seen a number of complaints about LaBellas in particular simply breaking for no reason. Of course, shipping one bad batch will give you reputation problems that will take a while to get past.

Am I also correct in assuming that nylon strings take a while to stabilize?

I've been wondering about the higher tension ("hard") strings causing accelerated warping, the big problem with classicals. I assume they sound better, but I'm curious about any downside.

**rhino333** · #5 05-09-2011, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bongolation

I've seen a number of complaints about LaBellas in particular simply breaking for no reason. Of course, shipping one bad batch will give you reputation problems that will take a while to get past.

Am I also correct in assuming that nylon strings take a while to stabilize?

I've been wondering about the higher tension ("hard") strings causing accelerated warping, the big problem with classicals. I assume they sound better, but I'm curious about any downside.

I've used Labellas in "pinch" only. Personally, I never liked the feel of them. I have used the Pro-Arte and they're not bad, but again, not my favorite.

Regarding nylon stings taking a while to stablize, I've found that they take no longer than steel or brass, really. It depends on how you "break them in". For me, I tie them off, tune them to pitch then stretch them by pulling up on them. It also depends on how you tie them. I do a "loop back" on the peg head which helps create a knot and friction of the sting against itself.

If you mean "neck warping", I've never had a neck warp due to using high tension strings and have never known anyone that has, either. A good classical should be built to handle that. Now, putting steel strings on a classical....THAT might cause some issues.

Phalex · #6 05-09-2011, 08:27 AM

I use D'Adarrio hard tension on mine. I don't have any issues with them at all.

JTE · #7 05-09-2011, 10:38 AM

Yes, nylon strings do take a bit longer to settle in. Stretching is something I don't do on guitar (steel string acoustic, electric) nor bass strings, but do on nylon all the time. PROPER attachment is very important as rhino333 says, both at the bridge and tuning rollers. Too much excess string will cause instability.

I don't know where you've heard that classical guitars are prone to warping at all- it frankly sounds like a "Guitar Center sales-drone" statement. They don't have adjustable truss rods, but that's because even high-tension strings don't put that much tension on the neck nor the bridge. Now there's a lot of less expensive "classical" guitars that have been abused and so the neck blocks have moved or the bridges have started to belly up. But my experience is that's often caused by various combinations of three factors. First, they're cheap guitars, not made well to start with. Second, they're often purchased by people who never wind up being serious about playing and so never learn about taking care of them- they sit in cases for months at a time, they get tuned too high ('cause the stings won't break as easily as steel strings when tuned too high),. Third when the owner goes into the store to get one string they say "I need an acoustic guitar string" and they put a steel D string on their classic.

John

Bongolation · #8 05-09-2011, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhino333

If you mean "neck warping"

No, top warping which is inevitable to varying degrees.

With every used classical I've seen, you could just about roll a golf ball under the strings due to uncompensated top warpage...though the new units are pretty well within spec, which is certainly high enough.

JTE · #9 05-09-2011, 04:15 PM

Wow, you must be looking at really pathetic used guitars. The place I used to manage has a Yamaha (early one made in Japan) that was new around 1970 that's very playable. There are lots of classical guitars that haven't had their tops pull nor warp.

John

Bongolation · #10 05-09-2011, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JTE

The place I used to manage has a Yamaha (early one made in Japan) that was new around 1970 that's very playable.

"Playable" is a subjective judgment and it probably had saddle work after the top stabilized in any case.

I'm figuring the standard e=/<.125" E=/<.155" @ 12th fret gap, which is pretty typical on new instruments and pretty far from typical on used ones as they have rarely had any maintenance since they were purchased.

Noticeable initial top warp is presumptive on classicals (and acoustics generally), which is why the saddles are so conspicuously high relative to the bridges -- so they have room to be shaved down as the top bells until it hopefully reaches a point of equilibrium and stability. The factors in reaching that point are a mystery to me, though I've seen a good number of steel-string acoustics warp fairly quickly then stop and warp no more during the next 20+ years of use.

Most just fold up, though, and require either a neck reset (and good luck getting that done competently for under about $600) or the solemn offices of Christian burial.

Quote:

There are lots of classical guitars that haven't had their tops pull nor warp.

Maybe, but I haven't encountered them so far.

If they settle down within the range of available saddle, I'm jake with that, but my concern is whether "hard" strings have enough added tension to worsen this problem.

It also seems to me (and correct me if I'm off here) that "hard" strings give a sharper, more cutting sound. I'm planning to use this instrument for nouvelle scene stuff which is a more flaccid folkie cum bossa nova sound, so I may be happier with normal-tension strings anyway. Does that make sense?

**rhino333** · #11 05-10-2011, 07:20 AM

I've never, ever had a top warp. Or neck twist or warp on any classical I've owned. From M Horabe to AlvarezYairi to Asturias, I've never seen it happen.

What brands/models have you been looking at?

JTE · #12 05-10-2011, 11:08 AM

Some "bellying" of the face of a good acoustic guitar is normal, and they're built that way. The saddles are high not to allow for lowering them later, but to give the strings a good break-over angle to help produce good sound. Neck-resets on quality acoustic guitars isn't uncommon, but by no means mandatory after 20+ years depending on the strings used and the care the guitar has been given.

My Guild A-50 (small bodied steel-string) which I bought in December '95 has the low E at 3/32" (0.0934") at the 12th fret, and the high E is 2/23" (0.0625). The only work on it was that I sanded the saddle down a little bit (about 1/32") the week I bought it to get the action where I prefer it to be (and recut the nut but I'm very picky about nuts). In the last 15+ years it's been strung with regular phosphor bronze strings in either light or medium depending on my mood and how much I'm playing acoustic. My Guild F-47CE (1999) has lower action and has had no work done on it at all.

I'm a bit mystified by your experiences...

John