College Audition Without Formal Training?

[Fetusyolk]

I was thinking of applying to a school for music, and i thought 'Berklee'. All academics aside, i have had no formal training (other than theory, and piano in my school, an some personal querying into the realm). How bad is this in the eyes of the school, and will it pretty much doom my chances?

and other than berklee, any mention of any other school for music that might be recommended would really be HIGHLY appreciated. Thank you very much.

[superbassman2000]

If you are looking at berklee, I would only ask how good are you and how much is it worth? berklee is VERY expensive, so i'd pick it only if you are 100% without-a-doubt sure that is what you want to do

[Freddels]

Go ahead and try if that's what you want to do. But it's sort of like someone saying "I can't skate but I'm going to try out for the college hockey team."

If you really want to go to college for music, do yourself a favor and go get the remedial work done BEFORE you go.

[Fetusyolk]

Originally Posted by Freddels

Go ahead and try if that's what you want to do. But it's sort of like someone saying "I can't skate but I'm going to try out for the college hockey team."

If you really want to go to college for music, do yourself a favor and go get the remedial work done BEFORE you go.

well in that scenario I would like to think I can play fairly competently. While I haven't been physically taught by someone that doesn't mean I haven't worked hard on my own.

I think my real question wasn't clearly expressed. If I were to apply and audition and do ok do you think the lack of an actual teacher on my app would cause that much of a Problem?

[Fetusyolk]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

If you are looking at berklee, I would only ask how good are you and how much is it worth? berklee is VERY expensive, so i'd pick it only if you are 100% without-a-doubt sure that is what you want to do

Surprisingly I hadn't evencput that to thought. Are there any other music institutes that seem like a good place to go?

[jonbass]

I dont think the lack of a teacher would be a problem as long as you can read and are playing at a level to take advantage of a school like Berkley. It's easy to get lost in the mix at a school like berkley because there are so many bass players there competing for a limited amount of ensembles. If your really trying to be a player, the expierince of playing in college ensembles is what music college is all about. We all know that a music performance degree doesnt mean much in the real world of working bassists. That bieng said, there are plenty of great music programs all over the country that might get you more bang for the buck. Do your research and good luck.

[superbassman2000]

Originally Posted by Fetusyolk

Surprisingly I hadn't evencput that to thought. Are there any other music institutes that seem like a good place to go?

i have heard a lot of good things about musictech in minneapolis/st. paul (i can't remember which one)

as far as teachers being on your app, I really don't think thats a problem--if you have to audition, it seems like thats a place where they can tell if you've got it or not

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by Fetusyolk

I was thinking of applying to a school for music, and i thought 'Berklee'. All academics aside, i have had no formal training (other than theory, and piano in my school, an some personal querying into the realm). How bad is this in the eyes of the school, and will it pretty much doom my chances?
and other than berklee, any mention of any other school for music that might be recommended would really be HIGHLY appreciated. Thank you very much.

I don't know what you mean when you say you've had no formal training and then (in a later post) talk about how not having had a teacher will affect your chances. They (any school) don't care about TEACHER, they care about SKILL SETS. If you can read, improvise a bass line over chord changes in a number of styles, play major, natural/melodic/harmonic minor, diminished and augmented scales in two octaves starting on pretty much any left hand finger, you'll be able to get in. The level at which you can make music in a number of (primarily jazz based) styles will determine which ensembles you get in. The depth to which you understand functional harmony will determine what harmony and composition classes you get in. The depth to which you can hear and identify intervals and chords and their attendant functions will determine which ear training class you get in.
But the absolute overweening factor is - how many bassists do they need and how many are applying. If you're the top of the heap of hundreds and 36th from the pointy top of the heap and they only need 15 bassists, you don't need a teacher to do that math. If they don't have a lot a bassists applying, then they're going to be a LOT more willing to do remedial work to get you up to at least the minimum level in any area.

The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, what do you expect to get out of going to school? Most people say networking, but you don't need school to do that. Just move someplace with a scene and jump in. Likewise, learn more about music. You get a good private teacher who can give you a good grounding in the fundamentals of music, who can work on ear training at a deep level with you AND be in a place where you can put what you're learning into practice with other musicians, that will put in the same place.
The one exception is teaching academically (and I guess there's some cachet if you're teaching privately and don't have the notoriety of being Freddie Hubbard's bassist on all the Blue Note records or something); you will need to have gone through some sort of academic setting, if not going through the entire route of majoring in music education.

[Gnome]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I don't know what you mean when you say you've had no formal training and then (in a later post) talk about how not having had a teacher will affect your chances. They (any school) don't care about TEACHER, they care about SKILL SETS. If you can read, improvise a bass line over chord changes in a number of styles, play major, natural/melodic/harmonic minor, diminished and augmented scales in two octaves starting on pretty much any left hand finger, you'll be able to get in. The level at which you can make music in a number of (primarily jazz based) styles will determine which ensembles you get in. The depth to which you understand functional harmony will determine what harmony and composition classes you get in. The depth to which you can hear and identify intervals and chords and their attendant functions will determine which ear training class you get in.
But the absolute overweening factor is - how many bassists do they need and how many are applying. If you're the top of the heap of hundreds and 36th from the pointy top of the heap and they only need 15 bassists, you don't need a teacher to do that math. If they don't have a lot a bassists applying, then they're going to be a LOT more willing to do remedial work to get you up to at least the minimum level in any area.

While I agree that your skills determine whether you get in or not, I do have to add having passed a Berklee audition last year, that this post sounds very intimidating indeed (sorry, Ed).

I mean, Ed is absolutely right in how your skills in different aspects will determine which classes you get in, but reading his post you might think you actually have to be able to do all these things already in order to get in.

Berklee doesn't expect an incredible amount of proficiency on your instrument when you get in. They want people of all levels. Just make sure you know what you're doing.

If you want to get a scholarship though, that's another story.

[Ed Fuqua]

Well, the thing I heard about Berklee these days is that they have about an 80% acceptance rate. That means 20% of folks who apply AREN'T accepted. Which means (as I said) "...the absolute overweening factor is - how many bassists do they need and how many are applying." Whether you're a part of the 80% or the 20% is entirely contingent on how many other bassists are applying when you are.

But I would say that the most important thing to take away form my post is the second paragraph...

[DanRJBrasil]

the only thing you need to get into berkelle is to read very well, you need that to pass the audition, other then that the money for it , and remember that they don't have a campus or provide dorms that makes everything much more expensive

[CamMcIntyre]

In my opinion, in order to get the most out of a setting such as Berklee, you need to be on top of your game BEFORE going there. That way, once you're there you can work on the upper level techniques and NETWORK with the other guys on that level. If you go in there and aren't on top of things, you will be placed with people on a similar level and it won't be as easy to network.

I'm placing a strong emphasis on networking. Music school can teach you a lot about music, but as importantly, music school allows you to network with people who you can get work from. I didn't graduate from music school, I actually dropped because I wasn't doing well. However, I did network quite well. I'm playing 3-4 nights a week with people that if I wouldn't have attended school, I wouldn't know/been recommended to.

[Fetusyolk]

My reading isn't top knotch, on the contrary actually, it's mediocre. I intend on intensively practicing that though to get on the top of my game whether or not i decide to apply to this school. Networking definately is not my main priority here (while it is a great opportunity), as i don't know if performance will be what i'm going for, (but definately interested in it ^^).

i appreciate all input, negative and positive, and i welcome all other help too. really, i'm overwhelmingly happy to be learning more about anything that has to do with musical schooling.

[CamMcIntyre]

So wait, you're telling me that you want to spend $30-40k a year to go to a school and not perform/network, but just practice and get the basics down? Not trying to take a leak on your idea, but if that's your goal-save the money. Find a good teacher locally and have at it. School can help you improve at a great clip, but that gets expensive man. I say this as someone who did something very similar.

I majored in Jazz Bass when I wasn't great at upright. The first year and a half it was unlearning and relearning technique. Mighty expensive basic lessons. I believe I could have gotten a LOT more out of lessons [and the program in general] if I would have been better at the bass before getting to school-e.g. there wouldn't have been as much remedial time.

I believe strongly [just like I said in my last post] that one of the best things about music school is getting a bunch of like minded people in one place. I'm not just talking about with other students though. One of the best contacts I made while in school was with a teacher. She recommended me to this guy once I dropped. I'm finishing up my 2nd show with him now, and he wants to use me for 2 more shows this season. None of that would have happened if I hadn't worked with the teacher at school.

The big question I have for you is the same as Ed,

"The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, what do you expect to get out of going to school?"

You need to know what you want out of music school/Berklee before you can know how to get it. E.g. what's your goal?

I'd recommend checking out a summer program if you want to get a taste of it. There are the Aebersold Combo Camps, Musicians Institute, Berklee Summer Bass Lines, and more that I don't know about. Those are the three that I'd like to attend.

all the best.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by jonbass

I dont think the lack of a teacher would be a problem as long as you can read and are playing at a level to take advantage of a school like Berkley. It's easy to get lost in the mix at a school like berkley because there are so many bass players there competing for a limited amount of ensembles. If your really trying to be a player, the expierince of playing in college ensembles is what music college is all about. We all know that a music performance degree doesnt mean much in the real world of working bassists. That bieng said, there are plenty of great music programs all over the country that might get you more bang for the buck. Do your research and good luck.

Berkley is part of the University of California. Berklee is the music school.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I don't know what you mean when you say you've had no formal training and then (in a later post) talk about how not having had a teacher will affect your chances. They (any school) don't care about TEACHER, they care about SKILL SETS. If you can read, improvise a bass line over chord changes in a number of styles, play major, natural/melodic/harmonic minor, diminished and augmented scales in two octaves starting on pretty much any left hand finger, you'll be able to get in. The level at which you can make music in a number of (primarily jazz based) styles will determine which ensembles you get in. The depth to which you understand functional harmony will determine what harmony and composition classes you get in. The depth to which you can hear and identify intervals and chords and their attendant functions will determine which ear training class you get in.
But the absolute overweening factor is - how many bassists do they need and how many are applying. If you're the top of the heap of hundreds and 36th from the pointy top of the heap and they only need 15 bassists, you don't need a teacher to do that math. If they don't have a lot a bassists applying, then they're going to be a LOT more willing to do remedial work to get you up to at least the minimum level in any area.

The REAL question you need to ask yourself is, what do you expect to get out of going to school? Most people say networking, but you don't need school to do that. Just move someplace with a scene and jump in. Likewise, learn more about music. You get a good private teacher who can give you a good grounding in the fundamentals of music, who can work on ear training at a deep level with you AND be in a place where you can put what you're learning into practice with other musicians, that will put in the same place.
The one exception is teaching academically (and I guess there's some cachet if you're teaching privately and don't have the notoriety of being Freddie Hubbard's bassist on all the Blue Note records or something); you will need to have gone through some sort of academic setting, if not going through the entire route of majoring in music education.

Originally Posted by Red Duckquack

Well, the thing I heard about Berklee these days is that they have about an 80% acceptance rate. That means 20% of folks who apply AREN'T accepted. Which means (as I said) "...the absolute overweening factor is - how many bassists do they need and how many are applying." Whether you're a part of the 80% or the 20% is entirely contingent on how many other bassists are applying when you are.

But I would say that the most important thing to take away form my post is the second paragraph...

Whenever Ed F posts I stop and read.

The only thing I have to add here is that Berklee has a
high dropout rate, which is reflected in the high acceptance
rate.

A friend of a friend is a prof there right now, and people
looking for and willing (and able) to pay for a private music
education are hard to find.

There are plenty of courses about the music business they
offer as well. There are a number of students there who are
active or former TB'ers. PM me and I will give you the
usernames I have.

Like any other course of education, you have to be an
educated consumer about what you are buying, how much it
costs, what you expect to achieve or get out of it and
how you expect to be able to use it to your advantage in the future.

Best wishes for your future musical endeavors.

I am way overdue to visit a friend in NY and way overdue for
a real conversation with the man.

[tycobb73]

What do you want out of life? My former teacher went there. He's teaching at a music store and playing in a originals band that has a hard time pulling 300 people a show. Its actually one of the if not the biggest local originals band. Its a blues based hard rock band, and he says he uses nothing that her learned at Berklee in this band. Is this what you want? He doesn't own his house, can't afford it. He actually practices less now than he ever did because he teaches all night and has a family to take care of, as in he can't afford daycare so he works nights while his wife works days and they never see each other. This will probably be your life. He is ok with it. Will you be?

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by Fetusyolk

My reading isn't top knotch, on the contrary actually, it's mediocre. I intend on intensively practicing that though to get on the top of my game whether or not i decide to apply to this school. Networking definately is not my main priority here (while it is a great opportunity), as i don't know if performance will be what i'm going for, (but definately interested in it ^^).

i appreciate all input, negative and positive, and i welcome all other help too. really, i'm overwhelmingly happy to be learning more about anything that has to do with musical schooling.

If you can sight read typical melodies out of the Real Book #1 in a reasonable style and modest tempo, and if you can correctly walk chord changes without getting lost, and can solo over said changes in a musical way, then work up the flashiest possible audition, and go for a scholarship at UNT, New England Conservatory, BerkLee, etc.

But I'd also recommend being able to play Double Bass (upright) well enough to audition with that instrument, too. Makes a huge difference, and opens many more programs, scholarships, and schools. Go visit the DB forums and lurk for a while.

If you are not ready for that, I'd get ready before entering. Playing catch up means you are going to have limited chances to shine and play with the top cats.