Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

bongomania · #1 08-14-2010, 01:36 AM

Edit--Note to readers just starting the thread: Later I included tests of eight different cables ranging in price from $9 to $159. Also the later graphs are provided in a larger format with clearer labeling. Keep reading past the first page.

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Some of you may recall a thread I started several months ago, looking for a reasonable scientific explanation for why three cables I have, of the same length, sounded so different to me. Even though I am usually one of the "science guys" in any thread, merely asking this question -without making any objective claims, or saying one cable was better than another- so enraged the other science guys that they turned on me

saying I clearly don't understand how cables work, and I must be one of those idiots who drank the Kool-Aid that snake-oil cable hypemen serve up.

So I promised to run a spectrum analysis of the cables. Well, my ancient computer refused to play along with the RTA software, so I let the thread die. Here it is several months later, and I got a new computer, and it runs TrueRTA software just fine. So, drumroll.....

...Here it is:

Three cables, separate readings: one in blue, one in pink, and one in green. Note the scale--1 dBu per line.

Was my subjective listening impression wrong? You betcha!

At least as far as this software is able to determine, the three cables are exactly identical. So the actual answer to my original question, "why do they sound so different", is: they don't. It was my imagination. It has nothing to do with being an idiot, or not knowing how cables work, or buying in to anybody's hype. It's just that when we expect to hear differences, we do hear them.

I knew that, of course, but I was convinced that my ears are so trained for relative objectivity that I wouldn't be fooled, not even by my own thoughts. Wrong!

Anyway, I've taken my dose here. Time for those of you who have "magic" high-end cables to take yours.

**woolysock** · #2 08-14-2010, 01:41 AM

Plz refresh our collective memory: What were the three cables?

bongomania · #3 08-14-2010, 01:44 AM

Oh yeah, forgot to mention that.
--Elixir ($60)
--Fender "Premium Gold" ($50)
--Canare with G&H nickel plugs ($30)
all are 15'.

calebbarton · #4 08-14-2010, 01:58 AM

I would imagine that the biggest influence on the sound of the cable would be the resistance of the copper (or whatever) used to actually transmit the signal along with the length. From what I know about this subject, the actual size of the wire will make a difference in the sound as well because of the resistance. Thing is, the current being transmitted here is so low that Im not sure if any of these variables will really make that much of a difference. So, in effect you just proved my ideas

Thanks!

David1234 · #5 08-14-2010, 02:12 AM

What about phase response? What about group delay? What about ability to match the bass's impedance to the amp's input impedance?

Come on! Just because you've got that graph surely doesn't mean you imagined the tone difference you heard?

ggunn · #6 08-14-2010, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebbarton

I would imagine that the biggest influence on the sound of the cable would be the resistance of the copper (or whatever) used to actually transmit the signal along with the length. From what I know about this subject, the actual size of the wire will make a difference in the sound as well because of the resistance. Thing is, the current being transmitted here is so low that Im not sure if any of these variables will really make that much of a difference. So, in effect you just proved my ideas

Thanks!

Actually, of the three components of impedance (resistance, capacitance, and inductance), resistance is the one that will not affect frequency response.

fdeck · #7 08-14-2010, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

Some of you may recall a thread I started several months ago, looking for a reasonable scientific explanation for why three cables I have, of the same length, sounded so different to me.

I'm one of the science guys too, and I didn't turn on you. I think the point that I was trying to make is that there is a scientific explanation, and it's staring us in the face.

Quote:

It was my imagination.

That's the scientific explanation.

You weren't wrong. You were just looking for an explanation in the wrong place.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #8 08-14-2010, 11:03 AM

The ability to happily accept that a previously held-to theory is incorrect when new evidence presents itself is tough thing to do, and the basis of all good science. Good job.

Munjibunga · #9 08-14-2010, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calebbarton

I would imagine that the biggest influence on the sound of the cable would be the resistance of the copper (or whatever) used to actually transmit the signal along with the length. From what I know about this subject, the actual size of the wire will make a difference in the sound as well because of the resistance. Thing is, the current being transmitted here is so low that Im not sure if any of these variables will really make that much of a difference. So, in effect you just proved my ideas

Thanks!

Wrong. If there were a difference (and there wasn't), it would most likely be due to capacitance.

champbassist · #10 08-14-2010, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongomania

they turned on me

saying I clearly don't understand how cables work, and I must be one of those idiots

Well the whole of TB knows how much truth there is in that statement

Nice work, though!

Munjibunga · #11 08-14-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1234

What about phase response? What about group delay? What about ability to match the bass's impedance to the amp's input impedance?

Come on! Just because you've got that graph surely doesn't mean you imagined the tone difference you heard?

The true believers begin to emerge.

JAUQO III-X · #12 08-14-2010, 11:16 AM

It doesn't prove that there is no difference in sound. When people really can hear a difference. Whether it's in their mind or not.

Now if you want to prove otherwise, why not take the same three cables and have the outer covers and ends all branded differently.

MEKer · #13 08-14-2010, 12:55 PM

Sounds to me (ha--punnish) that people are trying to put too fine a point on bongomania's research. Just because someone claims to hear a difference in standard cable makes does NOT mean there is a difference. At some point perception---that hallowed differentiator---has to take a back seat to a fact.

The research bongomania did just confirmed what I have always known and practiced---others "claims" notwithstanding.

That being said---go out and buy the cables you think sound best.

All better now?

5string5fingers · #14 08-14-2010, 01:01 PM

I see the true flaw in your study.

I didn't include monster cables! We ALL know they have the true impact on tone............

Etienned · #15 08-14-2010, 01:23 PM

I'd be interested to see what are the ''scientific'' differences lenght can cause. I hear a difference between a 12' and a 20', but that might be placebo-ish.

Nevertheless, no difference in sound/tone doesn't mean one design isn't tougher than the other. I care more about durability than about the sound when I go cable shopping. But that wasn't the intended purpose of the OP so...

Thanks

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #16 08-14-2010, 01:33 PM

Length can make a noticeable difference if you're using a passive instrument without a buffer. Active/buffered, not so much.

kuys · #17 08-14-2010, 01:34 PM

Cable scams are one of the most prevalent scams in the audio and home theater market.

Monster is one of the absolute worst in the industry when it comes to these scams. Best buy in partnership with Monster has been known to hook two tv's up, one with a SD signal and one with a HD signal then sit them side by side and advertise, "The monster difference."

9.9 times out of 10, a cable is a cable is a cable.

Bijoux · #18 08-14-2010, 01:44 PM

how about those cables by Evidence Audio.
I was once recording using my monster cable, and the engineer asked me to use one of his cables, Evidence Audio that costs $150!!!
i thought it was BS.
turns out I thought my bass was suddenly twice as loud!
maybe he turned me up.../ ... without me noticing it?....

kuys · #19 08-14-2010, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bijoux

how about those cables by Evidence Audio.
I was once recording using my monster cable, and the engineer asked me to use one of his cables, Evidence Audio that costs $150!!!
i thought it was BS.
turns out I thought my bass was suddenly twice as loud!
maybe he turned me up.../ ... without me noticing it?....

$150 for a cable?!?!

That is asinine, that thing better be made out of solid gold with diamond inlays, hell even then it's still not going to sound any better or louder.

A cable is a cable is a cable it doesn't matter if it's got gold plated ends or super duper flux capacitors, if it's soldered well and has a decent sheath it's going to work as well as any boutique cable.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #20 08-14-2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bijoux

how about those cables by Evidence Audio.
I was once recording using my monster cable, and the engineer asked me to use one of his cables, Evidence Audio that costs $150!!!
i thought it was BS.
turns out I thought my bass was suddenly twice as loud!
maybe he turned me up.../ ... without me noticing it?....

Unless the cable had a preamp built into it, it can't increase your volume. At all. The only possibility outside of misinterpreting/hearing incorrectly/engineer cheating is that your other cable was simply bad. Monster does attenuate some high frequencies on their "bass" cable, but it shouldn't cut volume by 50%.