Cutting through when the guitar has too much bass

Matthew Bryson · #1 11-01-2006, 01:38 PM

Is there any way to be heard when playing a unison line with a guitar player who is playing a Les Paul on the rhythm pick up setting through a tube amp with 4 x12's?

I'm starting to think that the rhythm pick up on a Les Paul is the devil - It seems to be the perfect guitar sound for guitarists with bass envy.

tplyons · #2 11-01-2006, 01:38 PM

mids, Mids, MIDS.

jrthebassguy · #3 11-01-2006, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tplyons

mids, Mids, MIDS.

pretty much.

Aaron Saunders · #4 11-01-2006, 02:35 PM

Yeah, you're going to want to turn the high-mids right up on your amp...or just tell your guitar player he's stomping all over your range.

phxlbrmpf · #5 11-01-2006, 03:28 PM

In my experience, telling the guitar player to turn down the bass knob on his amp is the only solution that really works, bass heavy guitar sounds can "swallow" what the bass is playing completely and lead to an overall weak and muddy sound, in my opinion.

Phil Smith · #6 11-01-2006, 03:57 PM

How to be heard in that situation...

Wait until the song is over and tell the guitarist to turn down the volume and the bass.

Ben B · #7 11-01-2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthew Bryson

Is there any way to be heard when playing a unison line with a guitar player who is playing a Les Paul on the rhythm pick up setting through a tube amp with 4 x12's?

I'm starting to think that the rhythm pick up on a Les Paul is the devil - It seems to be the perfect guitar sound for guitarists with bass envy.

Yeah, I have that problem too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

How to be heard in that situation...

Wait until the song is over and tell the guitarist to turn down the volume and the bass.

That works for about 2 songs. Then he complains that he can't hear himself and turns up the bass again. If I turn up my volume, he just does the same on the next song.

Ben

Squidfinger · #8 11-01-2006, 09:44 PM

You know what I don't like about my Les Paul copy? The tone's too bassy. I knew I should have got a telecaster.

OK, I guess that has nothing to do with your thread but it made me think of it.

keb · #9 11-02-2006, 06:39 AM

Yeah, do a counter-invasion into his territory by cranking up the mids.

ddnidd1 · #10 11-02-2006, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phxlbrmpf

In my experience, telling the guitar player to turn down the bass knob on his amp is the only solution that really works, bass heavy guitar sounds can "swallow" what the bass is playing completely and lead to an overall weak and muddy sound, in my opinion.

Inexperienced guitarists tend to use the same tone in a group as they use when they are practicing alone. Played by itself a guitar may sound 'relatively' thin and so they turn up the bass to fill out the sound.

When a guitarist uses too much bass in a group setting, it completely screws up the mix. Its difficult for the bassist to overcome this. The bassist can make the mix sound better but not right.

If the guitarist has any inkling of a professional attitude they will turn down the bass on their guitar/amp for the benefit of the group.

Matthew Bryson · #11 11-02-2006, 10:33 AM

Well, fortuntaly my current guitarist usually finds a good tone. I've only run into trouble cutting through his sound once or twice - I just want to know how to overcome it when it does happen from time to time. It always seems to be the Les Paul on that one p/up setting that makes the guitar have so much bass - those things can make a lot of bass!

Now, in my last band, I played with a guy was kind of a jerk and who thought he could be guitar and bass at the same time and he'd crank the bass on his Marshall head and always have a lot of bass in his tone (I don't think he liked me) ...I quickly walked away and never looked back.

Relic · #12 11-02-2006, 10:39 AM

Turning up the mids/high mids on your bass will allow you to cut through, but it isnt helping your overall sound. Bottom line is the guy has to ratchet down some of his lows.

Bottom Feeder · #13 11-02-2006, 10:47 AM

I get a little peeved about how we bassists have to be the ones who modify OUR sound to overcome the inabilities of a guitarist to create a good overall mix. Cranking up the mids to be heard ultimately creates a better sound but certainly not ideal.

It's no wonder we like the scooped sound. Too bad we rarely get to use it.

s.m.80808 · #14 11-02-2006, 12:21 PM

How does it sound to an audience? The low frequencies might be translating well further away.

Bottom Feeder · #15 11-02-2006, 12:53 PM

The low frequencies from a guitar never transfer well anywhere if they are competing freqs.
Low freqs from a guitar sound best when transfering from his 100 watt Marshall stack the entire 10 feet to his bedroom wall.

Generally, any competing freqs contribute to a muddy mix as they rarely are exactly the same freq. Sonic separation is the best policy.

ddnidd1 · #16 11-02-2006, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by s.m.80808

How does it sound to an audience? The low frequencies might be translating well further away.

Mud is mud.

triode6L6a · #17 11-02-2006, 01:50 PM

Yep.... I've been able to let my guitar friends HEAR the problem by having them sit in on one of my mix sessions.

First I play back just their track.... and it will sound great... all full with deep ballsy low end, great mids, and sparkly highs..... then I play back the whole mix and let them HEAR for themselves how much better the MIX sounds when I turn down the bass on just their channel...... how all of a sudden the mix cleans up and you can now hear everything better...more definition.

Then I play back just their track again.... and it sounds a little low end deficient..... then play it back with the mix..... and it sounds GREAT... and then they begin to get the idea.

It's worth a try.... just keep at it... and be nice....but insistant.

FretFree · #18 11-02-2006, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by triode6L6a

Yep.... I've been able to let my guitar friends HEAR the problem by having them sit in on one of my mix sessions.

First I play back just their track.... and it will sound great... all full with deep ballsy low end, great mids, and sparkly highs..... then I play back the whole mix and let them HEAR for themselves how much better the MIX sounds when I turn down the bass on just their channel...... how all of a sudden the mix cleans up and you can now hear everything better...more definition.

Then I play back just their track again.... and it sounds a little low end deficient..... then play it back with the mix..... and it sounds GREAT... and then they begin to get the idea.

It's worth a try.... just keep at it... and be nice....but insistant.

+1!

I think we all need access to this kind of arrangement!

spectorbass83 · #19 11-02-2006, 02:37 PM

Remind your guitarist that he doesn't play BASS and to get off your frequency.

If that doesn't work, a good strong kick to the groin will certainly do the trick.

s.m.80808 · #20 11-02-2006, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bottom Feeder

The low frequencies from a guitar never transfer well anywhere if they are competing freqs.
Low freqs from a guitar sound best when transfering from his 100 watt Marshall stack the entire 10 feet to his bedroom wall.

Generally, any competing freqs contribute to a muddy mix as they rarely are exactly the same freq. Sonic separation is the best policy.

It depends on the venue. I have played places where the acoustics were kind of crappy and everything sounded muddy especially on stage, but when I stood where the crowd was (thanks to a nice long cable) it cleared up a lot. In that case I learned to deal with it. Besides at loud volumes I wear hearing protection and hear primarily low mids and bass frequencies anyway. It is all reallys ubjective because there are so many variables.

It really depends more on what kind of music it is too. Jazz guitarists use a lot of low frequencies and it usually translates well in a group. If everyone actively listened there wouldnt really be these kinds of problems, so yeah its probably an issue to discuss with the guitarist.