Did Vinnie Fodera backstabs Ken Smith?

Manuel101 · #1 08-26-2011, 12:29 PM

This is an excerpt from Ken Smith's own forums.
"I met Vinnie at Spectors in late 1978 I believe and don't know much about his past other then Humphrys and he went to Art & Design school I think.

Joey was a bass player and he and Vinnie teamed up with a 3rd guy, Alex Thompson who was an old friend of Vinnie's that just got out of the Navy I think. Alex ran the business and dealt with me mainly. Joey was the sales guy and played in a wedding type band I believe, not what we considered a pro in the NY scene back then in my circles. Without Alex, I felt they were lost in starting up this business. He was the bull with the horns. Him I respected as a business person but a little 'just left the military' syndrome aggression. Too strong for the soft spoken Vinnie and bass lover Joey I think.

Vinnie and I started the shop in mid 1980 after he left Spector as we had both arranged, (not '81 as in that Ebay ad story quoted) and it went on for about 3 years. I never wanted to have or to run a shop because I was a busy studio player. Vinnie NEVER made a Smith Bass period. He worked on them! The main woodworking guy I grant you but I completed much of the finishing in my NYC studio/apt. I assembled and set-up every Bass in NYC, not Brooklyn. The Brooklyn shop was ONLY the wood working. I hired a few others from time to time. Vinnie worked mainly on piece work in the beginning and later went on salary. I would go in most days when I was not recording or teaching and cut wood, make up neck billets and body parts. Before that shop I had another guy in NY who made guitars and parts named Peter Mangaziol (sp?) who together with him, we made many neck and body parts with wood I bought and stored there before the shop in Brooklyn was ever set-up. We did 16 Basses at Spectors after my proto-type and then with my parts made in NYC with Peter, we ran another 14-16 but that was just at the time that Spector sold to Kramer so it was the last run done that way. This was carving and routing only with basic oil finish, no parts or completed instruments.

I bought 25 feet of Brass stock in the beginning in 1979 of 3/8" x 3/16", had them cut into 6-7 foot lengths or so to fit into my car and drove the brass home. I made every Nut by myself out of that first 25 feet of Brass so I KNOW how to make a Nut. After that, I had a guy make me Nut blanks on a CNC so I didn't have to cut and prep the raw stock. That saved me some time but also a lot of wear on my elbow, for real.

In 1983 Vinnie and his new partners wanted to buy the shop BUT the owner of the building wanted our corner store/shop for his sons pizzeria and would give us the store in the middle of the block. This was the best time for me to sell because Vinnie would have to do the move at his expense. I figured that the machines were about $9,000 in cost back then (something like that) so I let them work it off little by little, not fully traded in Basses like that other article said, as they did need money to operate. I forget the percentages but I let them do it as it was comfortable.

I was the nice guy here as Vinnie assured me that he would NOT compete with me and make mostly guitars and cheaper basses. Bull !!.. Him and Joey went to War against me calling ever supplier of mine and store that I sold to as well as customer/players and bragged that THEY made the Smith basses and now they have their own. They even made a catalog at the same studio as I used, same layout and colors and words but their basses. It looked like a Smith catalog with Fodera on the heads.

A total bunch of sneaky stuff (not my first choice of words..lol) this Fodera bunch did and back stabbing at that. I even sold them wood fairly cheap to get started. After the 1983 close and move they continued working for me but most of the parts were made already, and by me! Some new orders had to be done up but Alex wanted to make Fodera and not Smith so I was limited to what I could get out of them towards the end. This ended with a slow fade out in late 1985 to early'86 maybe. In early-mid 1985, I had already started up in Pa. In 1984, I went up to Guild in Rhode Island (before they were sold to US Music and then Fender, I think!) to see if we could work together on a sub contract but that wasn't the my best option. The President of Guild then was mark Dronge (DR Strings) who's father was the actual founder of Guild. He invited me up. Mark was one of the account Exec's at Ted Bates Advertising in NY in the late 1970s when I met him. I was the main guy on bass that they used for Jingles then. I think I was the main guy as I did well over 900 separate sessions for them in a 10 year period. That is almost 2 dates a week year round. I made my money on that account, trust me!.. I met Mark during the '70s Coors Beer campaign as it was his account. He told me then about his father and the Guild connection and that he was interested in going into the String business at some point. Well, he got his wish but not until after his own 'Guild Guitar's period'. In the music business and music products business, you meet a lot of different people. I have enough stories now to write a book. Some funny, some sad and some just business."

Lennard III. · #2 08-26-2011, 12:36 PM

I love my Foderas

jumbodbassman · #3 08-26-2011, 12:56 PM

ME TOO!!!!

I spent a lot of time in the shop with the boys back in 82-85 and i would say my observation of what they were building and the KS relationship would differ. Their first monarch price points were cheaper than Ken's, about $1000 before upgrades. KS basses back then had superior electronics, at least more expensive.....custom pups, circuits.

Contrary to Ken I am pretty sure nobody outside liked the third guy very much. very military, black and white kind of personality.

Knowing Vinnie as long as i do I can honestly say I don't believe he could backstab anybody. My wife met him a few times way back when and still comments whenever she sees one of my foderas what a "cupcake" he is. My fifth Fodera was my engagement present so she got to go to the shop and shop with me for wood. Spaulted sycamore

mstott25 · #4 08-26-2011, 12:59 PM

I'm sure Ken's perspective is different from the Fodera crew.

I respect both guys, Ken Smith definitely comes off as the more abrasive of the two and has burned bridges with some incredibly nice guys. That doesn't bother me at all as my interest in him is purely in the wonderful instruments he makes, I don't have a desire to become fishing buddies with the guy. I would, however, never argue with him about anything related to basses! He is a master, definitely knows his stuff and may still make the finest bass guitars available today.

I think he had some sort of falling out with Carl Thompson as well, I don't know any of them personally but from the outside it looks like you either follow Ken Smith or get out of his way. That doesn't always sit well with people but personalities aside, Ken Smith IMO only comes second to Leo Fender when it comes to contributions to the bass guitar.

Fodera also does their own thing and does it well, I like hearing about the history with all of these builders.

Handyman · #5 08-26-2011, 01:04 PM

Whatever did or didn't go on between these guys, it sure is classy to air this dirty laundry in public.

bongomania · #6 08-26-2011, 01:06 PM

Ken is a ****-talker. I won't deny his actual accomplishments over time, but whenever he says something negative about someone else--and he does, constantly-- it's just his nature as a nasty, mean ****-talker, having nothing to do with the quality of his basses.

Dr. Cheese · #7 08-26-2011, 01:09 PM

I haven't read the OP yet, but both Fodera and Ken Smith are successful companies with devoted followings. Whatever went on, I cannot imagine there is anything to gain by bringing it up.

rogerbmiller · #8 08-26-2011, 01:20 PM

Somewhat classless to rant like this about a competitor on your website.

Not to make this a Fodera vs. Smith pick a site type debate but I can share my experience.

I got my Fodera in 1989. I ordered it in person in 1988 back when they were on Avenue O. I was a kid, not a name player, and they spent hours with me, we ordered pizza into the shop, and customized my Emperor (Spalted Sycamore) exactly to my specifications. They were just wonderful, nice, salt of the earth guys and that energy exudes from the bass they made me.

A few years ago I met a highly respected pro bass player and composer who once played Ken Smith's and later switched to a Fodera. I told him my story and he volunteered that he used to play Smiths but switched because Ken was quite arrogant. Apparently, when he approached Ken for another custom bass with suggestions on refinements, KS was completely dismissive. So he went to Joey and Vinnny and they gave hum exactly what he wanted.

I have no dog in this hunt, but it sure seems that Fodera has the better product and customer service as evidenced by their success.

metalstorm · #9 08-26-2011, 01:36 PM

You can find all sorts of subtle and not so subtle digs at Fodera on that forum.

Col Pruse · #10 08-26-2011, 01:44 PM

he totally backstabsed him!

groooooove · #11 08-26-2011, 01:55 PM

i knew nothing about any of this..

i've been in touch with ken before and always got the impression that he was a great dude that just wanted to make instruments so we can make music with them.

i wonder what the fodera guys would say about this..

mstott25 · #12 08-26-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerbmiller

I told him my story and he volunteered that he used to play Smiths but switched because Ken was quite arrogant. Apparently, when he approached Ken for another custom bass with suggestions on refinements, KS was completely dismissive. So he went to Joey and Vinnny and they gave hum exactly what he wanted.

That's the exact same story I've heard from several notable bass players and I've heard it enough now to believe that's just what you get with Ken Smith.

He's like a character in an Ayn Rand book, he's determined to do his thing and he does it well but a lot of folks really cherish the builder/player relationship and want to go elsewhere.

I see nothing but class coming from the Fodera shop so anything Ken Smith says about those guys is never going to be enough to overpower the overwhelming chorus of cheers and appreciation that Fodera has gained over the past few decades.

Dr. Cheese · #13 08-26-2011, 02:12 PM

The irony is that Smiths and Foderas are nothing like each other. Except for the J-pup models, Smiths have that distinctive midrange thing. Foderas are much more personalized. They really are competition for each other.

Roscoe East · #14 08-26-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rogerbmiller

he used to play Smiths but switched because Ken was quite arrogant.

I've always wondered why the two most visible Ken Smith players in the 1980s -- Anthony Jackson and John Patitucci -- switched away from Smith basses (AJ to Fodera, JP to Yamaha). Not saying it has anything to do with Ken's personality, just struck me as odd at the time.

alexgeddy · #15 08-26-2011, 02:37 PM

as a semi pro bass player in pa...Ken smith is full of ****.....He is not interested in bass players , only what he can sell...... Ken if you have a diferent opinion you can PM me....... I asked them if they would work on a fender and they told me they were too busy and go find someone else. and they werent polite!!!!!!!

reap what you so

TheBasicBassist · #16 08-26-2011, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexgeddy

as a semi pro bass player in pa...Ken smith is full of ****.....He is not interested in bass players , only what he can sell...... Ken if you have a diferent opinion you can PM me....... I asked them if they would work on a fender and they told me they were too busy and go find someone else. and they werent polite!!!!!!!

reap what you so

I don't know much about the attitude that he gave you but here in NYC (as far as I know) neither Sadowsky, Fodera or Carl Thompson will work on ANYTHING aside from things that they have made, unless you're installing their electronics. Business is business, sir.

Manuel101 · #17 08-26-2011, 02:56 PM

I cant really judge on this issue because there are two sides to every story and then there is the truth. I just ordered a ken smith bass and i was looking over at the forums when i came across this. In the forum he was asking people who were interested in bass guitar history to ask him questions. He spoke about how he made his first bass (he said he wanted to play an electric bass that was as well made as an upright bass). I thought the story he was writing was interesting and informative. He wrote about how each of his innovations came about pickups, 6 strings, electronics etc. The pickups position for instance came about because a bass asked him to place the pickups as close to the bridge as possible, he (ken) loved the sound so much he decided to make that his default position. He wrote that he would refuse to make a modification in a bass if he knew that the modification would create an inferior product. I guess he just feels very strongly about how a great bass should be made.

Kwesi · #18 08-26-2011, 03:07 PM

I'll preface this by saying I have no side in this, I'm just giving my opinion.

I wonder if Ken honestly believed that Vinnie and Joey wouldn't be competition for him? I mean, why would two great builders go from building amazing hand-built masterpieces to cheaper stuff? I get that they were friends but had I been in his position I don't think I would'v given them anything to get started. Call me evil but, at least in retrospect, it looks pretty clear what the Fodera was. Even if they didn't intend to become direct competition for Ken and crew, that's exactly what they were doing.

Dr. Cheese · #19 08-26-2011, 03:07 PM

I actually like the fact that Ken Smith really sticks to his idea of what a bass guitar should be. The result has been a classic bass. I also think it is cool that Fodera seeks to bring the customer's vision to life. I just don't see where Fodera and Smith are competition.

mstott25 · #20 08-26-2011, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I actually like the fact that Ken Smith really sticks to his idea of what a bass guitar should be. The result has been a classic bass. I also think it is cool that Fodera seeks to bring the customer's vision to life. I just don't see where Fodera and Smith are competition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manuel101

He wrote that he would refuse to make a modification in a bass if he knew that the modification would create an inferior product. I guess he just feels very strongly about how a great bass should be made.

I think you guys are both right on the money. All of those original bass builders (Carl Thompson, Ken Smith, Fodera, Spector, even Sadowsky and Tobias) have found their niches and all make wonderful instruments. Fodera will do anything within reason, other builders not so much and I have to say I agree 100% with Ken Smith only building things his way or no way at all. That's definitely his prerogative, I can respect that.

I also like how he puts his version of history out there for all to read, of course there will be discrepancies and points of disagreement but it is cool to see the world from Ken Smith's perspective.

I have no preference for one bass builder over the other, although if I was ever locked in a shop with one of those bass builders for an entire day I'd much rather hang out with Roger Sadowsky and the Fodera guys in NY. I think Ken and I might get in a fist fight.