Did you know that.... (interesting topic)

[FunkyMan]

... there's no totally pure notes on any instruments in life? let me explain..

Did you know that when we play a note, any of them, say for example a G, That note is not really just a G, but is composed of all the notes sounding together at the same time? is a principle similar to the light, the light is composed of many colors as we all know, but what you see at the end is like a white right? same with notes.

To realize this, pluck a note and leave it ringing for several seconds (i recomend open strings at first time,is easier to hear) and when the string is about to fade out, pay very very close attention, you will clearly hear another note next to which you had previously played i think in open strings, the note is heard more easily is the fifth of that string, i'm note sure.. each of these "hidden" notes have their place in the fingerboard, then here we have the explanation of where harmonics come from

I learned this today, in the music academy where I am studying, we were all surprised, I asked if there are pure notes that were not accompanied by others, and the teacher told me yes, but they are not natural, only computer-generated! who has tried this, let me know.. I hope it was helpful!

[BlakeJustBlake]

I've heard this a lot before. They're called overtones, it's something that's utilized in Tuvan throat singing, where they sing so that several overtones can be heard at once.

[Sam Hain]

Interesting....

What about an instrument like a Theramin (sp?) or a bell/symbol?

[Lecomber]

After learning about standing waves in physics a level, my guess as to how harmonics work is that when you place your finger upon the string, it will block out all the harmonics except for the ones where that point is a node (remains stationary). I guess that this is why the point in the middle of the string provides the fullest sound, as many harmonics will share this point as a node (any standing wave with an equal number of wavelengths). This is just an idea though, and I would love to be corrected if anyone knows better.

I have 1 question though. My understanding of manipulating eq is that when you raise a certain frequency it emphasises the corresponding harmonic of the sound, and vice versa - when you lower that frequency that harmonic will decrease in volume. So, if you were to synthesize a waveform that was purely a fundamental, with no harmonics there, would it be possible to eq this waveform? Or would any attempts of equalisation only work at the frequency of the fundamental and only result in it being boosted or lowered in volume?

Sorry if I have used terms incorrectly. As I said, I'm only in my first year of A levels, and I don't really know what I'm talking about.

[ausf]

I just built a Theremin, it's more of a squeal than a resonant note.

Could the overtones you are referring to be sympathetic vibration or a natural change in the wave?

It's more obvious on the DB, but it you play a note, say A on the E string, the A string will vibrate as if it was lightly plucked itself.

I had a book that showed the waves of open strings and where you would find the harmonics to play them like a scale, perhaps as the string vibrates out, the secondary wave is evident in a similar fashion.

Just an idea.

[elzeder]

Hi

Thats why the open A doesnt sound or ring exactly, like his theoretical counterpart on the A string, different string size means different overtones ring out, other notes are heard better or less.

[megadan]

What you're refering to are called harmonics. The sound, or timbre, of an instrument is in part dicated by the harmonic structure. A thin, hollow, tone like a flute or a sine wave has mostly 1st harmonic (or fundamental). More complex tones have different levels of harmonics. Saw tooth waves, triangle waves, and square waves are some of the common 'types' of sounds, generally found in their 'purest' form in the synthesizer, but present in all instrument to a degree.

Check out some of these links for more reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_wave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sine_wave
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_frequency
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre

[Deathblade Eric]

Some more interestin' Facts

[uethanian]

Originally Posted by FunkyMan

... there's no totally pure notes on any instruments in life? let me explain..

Did you know that when we play a note, any of them, say for example a G, That note is not really just a G, but is composed of all the notes sounding together at the same time? is a principle similar to the light, the light is composed of many colors as we all know, but what you see at the end is like a white right? same with notes.

To realize this, pluck a note and leave it ringing for several seconds (i recomend open strings at first time,is easier to hear) and when the string is about to fade out, pay very very close attention, you will clearly hear another note next to which you had previously played i think in open strings, the note is heard more easily is the fifth of that string, i'm note sure.. each of these "hidden" notes have their place in the fingerboard, then here we have the explanation of where harmonics come from

I learned this today, in the music academy where I am studying, we were all surprised, I asked if there are pure notes that were not accompanied by others, and the teacher told me yes, but they are not natural, only computer-generated! who has tried this, let me know.. I hope it was helpful!

be careful when you say 'all notes sounding together.' it's not a continuous spectrum in the sense of light, harmonics occur at specific locations along a string - 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, etc. although theoretically this series extends infinitely, humans only perceive a low number because of our limited hearing...and that's a good thing too, otherwise your typically musical pitch would be cacophony! also worth remembering that real strings are not ideal, and harmonics do not always occur in the exact expected positions (see: stretch tuning on pianos).

depending on where you pluck a string, you are changing the prevalence of harmonics in the note. plucking near the neck, even numbered harmonics are brought out (1/2, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, etc), contributing to a mellow and open sound. at the bridge, odd harmonics are brought out (1/3, 1/5, 1/7, 1/9, etc.), contributing to a nasal or harsh sound. for comparison, a clarinet produces mainly even harmonics while an oboe produces mainly odd, explaining their contrasting tones. for most plucked strings, the 2nd harmonic (octave) and the 3rd harmonic (perfect fifth) are strongly present.

natural harmonics open up a huge issue of tuning; that is, our ideas of musical harmony are derived from relationships within the harmonic series. from the a fundamental of C we have
(1/1) C
(1/2) c
(1/3) g
(1/4) c'
(1/5) e'
(1/6) g'
(1/7) b-flat'
(1/8) c''

and the relationships between those harmonics include
(1/2) C to c
(1/3) c to g - perfect fifth
(3/4) g to c' - perfect fourth
(4/5) c' to e' - major third
(5/6) e' to g' - minor third
(6/7) g' to b-flat' - small minor third
(7/8) b-flat' to c'' - large whole tone

look up 'equal temperament' and 'just intonation,' understanding the differences and implications can give you a lot of insight into how harmonic progression works, and how tunings have historically developed.

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by Sam Hain

Interesting....

What about an instrument like a Theramin (sp?) or a bell/symbol?

all instruments have overtones. all of them. infact, every sound you hear- even the sound of me typing on my laptop right now, it all has overtones- overtones is what makes a trumpet sound differnt from a cello. its what gives any instrument its characteristics, and its the reason our tuning system ended up how it is- its loosely based on the "other notes" you hear when you play one pitch.

but, electronic instruments (synths) allow you to control those overtones, to give you a wide range of tones- thats exactly what bob moog and herbert deutsch were trying to create when they made the minimoog prototypes, an electric instrument where you can control how much of wich overtones you have.

[varunkapahi]

Originally Posted by FunkyMan

... there's no totally pure notes on any instruments in life? let me explain..

Did you know that when we play a note, any of them, say for example a G, That note is not really just a G, but is composed of all the notes sounding together at the same time? is a principle similar to the light, the light is composed of many colors as we all know, but what you see at the end is like a white right? same with notes.

To realize this, pluck a note and leave it ringing for several seconds (i recomend open strings at first time,is easier to hear) and when the string is about to fade out, pay very very close attention, you will clearly hear another note next to which you had previously played i think in open strings, the note is heard more easily is the fifth of that string, i'm note sure.. each of these "hidden" notes have their place in the fingerboard, then here we have the explanation of where harmonics come from

I learned this today, in the music academy where I am studying, we were all surprised, I asked if there are pure notes that were not accompanied by others, and the teacher told me yes, but they are not natural, only computer-generated! who has tried this, let me know.. I hope it was helpful!

the word is overtone sir

[StyleOverShow]

Originally Posted by BlakeJustBlake

I've heard this a lot before. They're called overtones, it's something that's utilized in Tuvan throat singing, where they sing so that several overtones can be heard at once.

Hiking in the Sedona Valleys one year with a cutey, we heard unworldly sounds coming from a box canyon. Now for Sedona, un-wordly is kinda normal.

Later that evening sitting in the jacuzzi we met the 'singers' who had produced those sounds as they did another live performance. Two women harmonizing (in 6ths and 9th intervals if memory serves) but one them particularly could produce overtones that made it sound like more than two voices and creepy. They were "New Age" folks and that pretty much dates the experience as 90's.

[FunkyMan]

Originally Posted by uethanian

be careful when you say 'all notes sounding together.' it's not a continuous spectrum in the sense of light, harmonics occur at specific locations along a string - 1/2, 1/3, 1/4, 1/5, 1/6, etc. although theoretically this series extends infinitely, humans only perceive a low number because of our limited hearing...and that's a good thing too, otherwise your typically musical pitch would be cacophony! also worth remembering that real strings are not ideal, and harmonics do not always occur in the exact expected positions (see: stretch tuning on pianos).

depending on where you pluck a string, you are changing the prevalence of harmonics in the note. plucking near the neck, even numbered harmonics are brought out (1/2, 1/4, 1/6, 1/8, etc), contributing to a mellow and open sound. at the bridge, odd harmonics are brought out (1/3, 1/5, 1/7, 1/9, etc.), contributing to a nasal or harsh sound. for comparison, a clarinet produces mainly even harmonics while an oboe produces mainly odd, explaining their contrasting tones. for most plucked strings, the 2nd harmonic (octave) and the 3rd harmonic (perfect fifth) are strongly present.

natural harmonics open up a huge issue of tuning; that is, our ideas of musical harmony are derived from relationships within the harmonic series. from the a fundamental of C we have
(1/1) C
(1/2) c
(1/3) g
(1/4) c'
(1/5) e'
(1/6) g'
(1/7) b-flat'
(1/8) c''

and the relationships between those harmonics include
(1/2) C to c
(1/3) c to g - perfect fifth
(3/4) g to c' - perfect fourth
(4/5) c' to e' - major third
(5/6) e' to g' - minor third
(6/7) g' to b-flat' - small minor third
(7/8) b-flat' to c'' - large whole tone

look up 'equal temperament' and 'just intonation,' understanding the differences and implications can give you a lot of insight into how harmonic progression works, and how tunings have historically developed.

No doubt, you have explained 1000 times better what I said originally, I was afraid to say other things because I don't know deeply about this issue, just the tip of the iceberg i think! And thankyou who says that this is called Overtones! I always learn something new from this forum!