Do technical bands appeal to non-musicians?

velvetkevorkian · #1 08-10-2006, 11:22 AM

The only example I can think of offhand is Meshuggah. A lot of people like Meshuggah, but do they hold any appeal for anyone who doesn't fully appreciate the complexity and technical difficulty of their music? I played a (non musical) friend a bit of Meshuggah and he said "Sounds like ordinary nu-metal".

I guess it would apply to instrumental virtuosos as well- does anyone other than bass players want to listen to an entire Victor Wooten album, for example?

Any thoughts?

superbassman2000 · #2 08-10-2006, 11:38 AM

i think there are people that like them, but i think there are a lot more musicians listening to technical music than non-musicians...when i listen to a technical band, i hear one thing, no matter what the song, and thats "Hey look what i can do!" and i don't know many non-musicians who really like that...

velvetkevorkian · #3 08-10-2006, 11:45 AM

But do they not like it, or do they just not appreciate whats going on?

(That sounds kind of patronising to non musos but I can't think of a better way to phrase it...)

WalterBush · #4 08-10-2006, 11:53 AM

Yes, non-musicians appreciate technical bands. Otherwise, classical music would have died out a long time ago.

I think part of it is, that if technical bands only had technical ability, they wouldn't get record deals. Meshuggah, Vic Wooten, Steve Vai, etc all have appeal besides the technical aspects of their playing. There's something else there that elevates their playing above the mastery of the mechanics of their instruments, and speaks emotionally to people.

superbassman2000 · #5 08-10-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velvetkevorkian

But do they not like it, or do they just not appreciate whats going on?

(That sounds kind of patronising to non musos but I can't think of a better way to phrase it...)

i dunno...i can't say i agree with the way your question is worded, it kind of sounds like you are saying that if they did appreciate the music, they would like it...i don't think that appreciation and liking something go hand in hand...i know that i as a musician can appreciate Yngwie Malmsteen's abilities to unleash the fury, but i don't like his music. Just because someone can play 30,000 arpeggios in 34 seconds doesn't exactly make it "good" music to me.
I know that my girlfriend (non-musician) has sat through my victor wooten bass day 98 DVD and she can appreciate his talent, but she doesn't really like the music all that much...

The Golden Boy · #6 08-10-2006, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabberwock777

Yes, non-musicians appreciate technical bands. Otherwise, classical music would have died out a long time ago.

I think part of it is, that if technical bands only had technical ability, they wouldn't get record deals. Meshuggah, Vic Wooten, Steve Vai, etc all have appeal besides the technical aspects of their playing. There's something else there that elevates their playing above the mastery of the mechanics of their instruments, and speaks emotionally to people.

I don't agree with that at all. Classical music is about the composition, not virtuosity of performance. I don't particularly dig it, but it is well put together.

For the most part, you're going to have a hard time finding "ordinary" people that are going to know a Wooten tune, or a Jaco tune, a Vai tune, or Yngwie tune or... The aspect that a "layperson" sees in music is the song. Non-musical people identify with the melody, with the lyrics- although they might notice some fancy pants playing- it's the song they pay attention to. Something like Eric Johnson's "Cliffs Of Dover" is not only a technical showcase, but it's a catchy song. It hasn't stayed in the realm of popular culture- but it was big at the time, and it will still turn people's heads.

Peter Squire · #7 08-10-2006, 08:15 PM

I think you only need to look at what is in the charts to see the kind of music that lots of people buy. Whether it's because they are bombarded with it on commercial radio or whatever, most of the charts are lacking in "maths" bands IMHO

The Golden Boy · #8 08-10-2006, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Squire

most of the charts are lacking in "maths" bands IMHO

The idea is that no "normal" people care if a song is in odd time, unless they can't dance to said odd time. Not too many non musicians are going to analyze that kind of thing.

superbassman2000 · #9 08-10-2006, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

The idea is that no "normal" people care if a song is in odd time, unless they can't dance to said odd time. Not too many non musicians are going to analyze that kind of thing.

thats why i always wonder how Tool is so popular...i was thinking about that when their new song came on the radio...it works out to headbang or thrash around but then every so often they throw in an extra beat or two...i think it's rediculous...

The Golden Boy · #10 08-10-2006, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

thats why i always wonder how Tool is so popular...i was thinking about that when their new song came on the radio...it works out to headbang or thrash around but then every so often they throw in an extra beat or two...i think it's rediculous...

It's not the time, it's not the musicianship, it's a good overall sound and good songs.

superbassman2000 · #11 08-10-2006, 08:49 PM

you've got a point

Three33 · #12 08-10-2006, 09:06 PM

i disagree that "technical" musicians are just showing off. they, like all creative musicians of any level of proficiency, are just trying to communicate the music in their heads out to the world.

CrazyArcher · #13 08-11-2006, 08:07 AM

IMO it's a question of good taste. There are wankers, and there are musicians that just put a nice technical solo here and there. I can compare Malmsteen and Randy Rhoads here...

poor_gear_whore · #14 08-11-2006, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

i dunno...i can't say i agree with the way your question is worded, it kind of sounds like you are saying that if they did appreciate the music, they would like it...i don't think that appreciation and liking something go hand in hand...i know that i as a musician can appreciate Yngwie Malmsteen's abilities to unleash the fury, but i don't like his music. Just because someone can play 30,000 arpeggios in 34 seconds doesn't exactly make it "good" music to me.
I know that my girlfriend (non-musician) has sat through my victor wooten bass day 98 DVD and she can appreciate his talent, but she doesn't really like the music all that much...

+1 I can appreciate wooten's ability, but I dont really care for his music.

lamarjones · #15 08-11-2006, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velvetkevorkian

But do they not like it, or do they just not appreciate whats going on?

(That sounds kind of patronising to non musos but I can't think of a better way to phrase it...)

For the most part, no they are not going to 'appreciate what is going on', unless there is already a built in buzz around it.

Tool was mentioned, check out their first two records, they weren't in crazy syncopated mode by then, that all came after they were pretty much garunteed.

Thing about Garaj Mahal is, even though there are crazy changes and all that, there still is a very accessible dance beat and flow through the whole thing that won't throw off the average listener, which tends to help with the general public. Also, it also kind of has a groove that some dance clubs pimp out, just in a jazz funk kinda way.

Point is,yeah there are some exceptions, but for the most part you won't win over people on crazy timed stuff, at least in america. Certain math rock excluded.....(agree with messugah, mastodon, blah blah....)

PS, some random notes.....

Oteil and the Peacemakers - I LOVE how Oteil decides he needs a singer to make the overall band make more sense to the average guy, but while still having all the trimmings that the musicians love to have.

G3 - While checking out the DVD, it was clear that there was WAY more feel with Vai and Satriani than Malmsteem. Malmsteem is all wank, not so with the other two. Granted there is a line that it being ridden, Malmsteem does not care about the line at all.....

Scofield - Pick Hits and A go go. the first is definitely a killer disc, but I think more so for musicians. A go go really has a vibe that goes well with many peeps, but then a gain some musicians might not get all the 'shred' they might crave, but then again I think that is not suppossed to be in that disc.....

just talking.....

Matt Till · #16 08-11-2006, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

thats why i always wonder how Tool is so popular...i was thinking about that when their new song came on the radio...it works out to headbang or thrash around but then every so often they throw in an extra beat or two...i think it's rediculous...

One thing Tool does that helps them maintain a certain level of popularity... there always seems to be something keeping some kind of 4 feel. And they do the odd timed thang because that's how the riffs are written, as opposed to some bands who do the odd time for odd timed sake.

That's the main thing about complex music, it can cover many genres. Steve Vai is popular among non musicians because he can shred over generic metal riffs, non musicians love generic metal riffs. He keeps it in 4/4 most of the time and just wanks.

But a band like... Spiral Architect where nothing is in a standard meter, and everythings changing constantly, I don't see something like that gaining a non musician crowd.

You can be complex and maintain a mainstreamish audience, as long as there are some simplistic elements... a catchy riff/melody or some kind of 4 feel.

velvetkevorkian · #17 08-11-2006, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

I don't agree with that at all. Classical music is about the composition, not virtuosity of performance. I don't particularly dig it, but it is well put together.

For the most part, you're going to have a hard time finding "ordinary" people that are going to know a Wooten tune, or a Jaco tune, a Vai tune, or Yngwie tune or... The aspect that a "layperson" sees in music is the song. Non-musical people identify with the melody, with the lyrics- although they might notice some fancy pants playing- it's the song they pay attention to. Something like Eric Johnson's "Cliffs Of Dover" is not only a technical showcase, but it's a catchy song. It hasn't stayed in the realm of popular culture- but it was big at the time, and it will still turn people's heads.

I think thats what I was getting at. Its not that every technically complex band appeals only to musicians, but with a band like Meshuggah, there isn't a whole lot else other than technicality. Same with Malmsteen, only a different technical aspect. Hmm, maybe I should try asking this on a forum not specifically dedicated to musicians....

The Golden Boy · #18 08-12-2006, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by velvetkevorkian

Hmm, maybe I should try asking this on a forum not specifically dedicated to musicians....

You need look no further than something like the Rolling Stone poll of greatest guitarists or greatest guitar rock albums.

Otso · #19 08-12-2006, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

I don't agree with that at all. Classical music is about the composition, not virtuosity of performance. I don't particularly dig it, but it is well put together.

-1
In many cases it is also about the virtuosity of performance, the best known example would probably be Paganini's 24 caprices for violin. They aren't that interesting unless you play the violin, like a lot of non-bassists probably won't find Wooten's music that interesting.

The Golden Boy · #20 08-12-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Otso

-1
In many cases it is also about the virtuosity of performance, the best known example would probably be Paganini's 24 caprices for violin. They aren't that interesting unless you play the violin, like a lot of non-bassists probably won't find Wooten's music that interesting.

I can't say I've ever heard that piece. Which backs up my initial position. The pieces (whether classical or otherwise) that the average person or non musician remembers or knows are the pieces that are good "as a whole."

Many things can be popular with mass acceptance and have incredible musicianship- but "show off" pieces generally aren't massively popular with the "mainstream" non-musician audience.