Drummer with good timing but....

JumboJack · #1 08-08-2009, 12:30 PM

....plays the verses differently some times.
What I mean is he will play the kick

1 and 2 and 3 and 4 one time and then something like 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 the next...With out any rime or reason.I play at church so it can be different drummers from time to time.

I tend to keep the bass line pretty simple and like to be able to lock in with the kick..But if it is always different what should I be looking to play?
I can pick up where he is after he has started the next verse or chorus but is there something that I could look to do that would not fight with the beat he is playing and just play the same line through out the whole song?

Intenzity · #2 08-08-2009, 12:42 PM

ugh one of my pet peeves about drummers. He is basically solo-ing during the tune. To me it exposes a drummer that is used to playing by himself and not in a group context or one that has a "look what I can do" or doesnt get to play that much so he puts everything he knows in every song.

You have two choices:
1) Do nothing and just try and use your psychic abilities to try and determine what beat he is going to put the kick on this measure this time. Good luck with that. There is no trick here, it is impossible to read the mind of another human being so you may guess right every once in a while, but it will be rare.
2) Talk to him, and tell him, for this gig, he needs to pick 1 or 2 patterns for every song so that you can lock to it and sync up with his kick drum. Its not bebop, its church music.

If the guy is good, (well, he wouldnt be doing that in the first place, he would be finding a pattern that fits the song and lets you lock to it) but if he is good enough to listen he will be cool with that.

I am willing to bet people will react if he simplifies his kick and you two lock up, you can pose it to him like that, as an experiment. People may not even really notice it consciously, but they will react when the band is locked and you are nailing the beats with his kick. It will propel the entire band and people will feel it.

JumboJack · #3 08-08-2009, 01:14 PM

I their defense we have a huge catalog of songs so the songs we are playing we have only rehearsed a few times before we play them and may not play them again for some time...But is is only the drum part not lead guitar or piano.And we're not playing Dream Theater or Porcupine Tree...

WyrmDL · #4 08-08-2009, 04:03 PM

Uh oh; I'm a drummer and I do this...

Have I been walking down the wrong path this whole time?!

**bassybill** · #5 08-08-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrmDL

Uh oh; I'm a drummer and I do this...

Have I been walking down the wrong path this whole time?!

No. Not at all.

Intenzity · #6 08-08-2009, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrmDL

Uh oh; I'm a drummer and I do this...

Have I been walking down the wrong path this whole time?!

YES!

Your job in a band situation is to keep the time and groove. Groove comes from repetition. If you are changing your kick pattern every bar then there is no repetition and it is just random drum hits, that is not a groove. Nothing will lock, you can't set up a kick pattern that lets everyone else predict and then lets them find a rhythmic part that fits. Most songs have a feel and that feel has a some kind of reoccuring pattern that makes the feel what it is. If you are hitting 1 and 3 one bar then the and of 2 then 1 then the and of 3....it is *so* frustrating playing with guys like that you have no idea. Unless all those hits are *worked out* and match the bass line, or the melody and the entire band is all hitting them, it just sounds like you are just off in your own drummer world and not playing the song everyone else is. Your job is not to play with the beat, it is to *be* the common beat reference for 3-4 other people in the band. 2 patterns MAX per song section, verse chorus etc. repeat them over and over so people feel and internalize them.

This affliction hits drummers the worst it appears. They don't know the difference between playing random drum stuff and being a drummer in a band. Turn all this **** off and just play a groove everyone can lock to. THEN you are good a drummer. When you do sixteenth note triplet hi-hats, change your kick drum every measure, do 3 over 4 grooves on a cover tune, you are an idiot. You laugh, but I have played with people like that, it is a miserable experience.

Don't play with guys that do that if you can avoid it, or sit down and say that while they think they are doing cool things, they are not being a good band drummer, they may have chops but when you are doing band stuff, that is the least important skill a drummer needs. Time, feel, and predictability are way way more important - ESPECIALLY if it is the first time he is playing with someone so they have something they can latch onto.

There are lots of guys that own drums. Millions. There are very very few good drummers.

WyrmDL · #7 08-08-2009, 06:06 PM

I'll definitely take that advice to heart.

The way I've been playing, I would play a certain beat, a groove, a pattern (however you would describe it), and it would be the central feel/rhythm. From time to time I would chuck in a bass drum hit here and there to "change it up", or however I would call that.

I don't go excessively crazy on the drumset, and I try to keep a central groove. The way you describe the bad drummer, it sounds like someone playing a drumfest during a normal song. Is it a sin to throw in the extra bass drum hit once in a while, even when you're keeping the general beat consistent? Is the bass drum supposed to be absolute rule, or is it more of a fairly strict guide?

JumboJack · #8 08-09-2009, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrmDL

I'll definitely take that advice to heart.

The way I've been playing, I would play a certain beat, a groove, a pattern (however you would describe it), and it would be the central feel/rhythm. From time to time I would chuck in a bass drum hit here and there to "change it up", or however I would call that.

I don't go excessively crazy on the drumset, and I try to keep a central groove. The way you describe the bad drummer, it sounds like someone playing a drumfest during a normal song. Is it a sin to throw in the extra bass drum hit once in a while, even when you're keeping the general beat consistent? Is the bass drum supposed to be absolute rule, or is it more of a fairly strict guide?

IMO when the bass player is trying to lock in with the drummer (and the bass drum to be exact) then it is better for me if the beat is a little bit more consistent.Of course a fill or ascent is
ok and adds flair but the guy I was playing with was just being in consistent.

Like I said if he is going to play the verse 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 then do it like that for the whole song.Thats how I come up with my line.

Taylor Livingston · #9 08-09-2009, 01:26 AM

I can think of few things (in music) more irritating to me than hearing the exact same drum beat bar after bar. What your drummer is doing is not even remotely "out there". If he chucks in syncopated rolls on the kick, and plays the kick not on the numbers and "ands" but the "e's" (as in 1-e-and-a-2-e) then that could be a bit much, but hitting a kick on on the upbeat is pretty tame.

What you're doing is kind of the equivalent of when guitarists say something like, "What are you doing playing the third? Just alternate between root and fifth for an hour, please."

Intenzity · #10 08-09-2009, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

I can think of few things (in music) more irritating to me than hearing the exact same drum beat bar after bar.

you must be endlessly irritated by James Brown, Prince, Every hip-hop group EVER, Bob Marley, Aretha Franklin, Peter Gabriel, Rage against the Machine, Beastie Boys, The Police, ZZ top..I could go on and on.

A lot of tunes by those people have a re-occurring kick patterns of 1-2 measure durations that repeat over and over for an entire section, verse or chorus with very slight variation, if any.

electracoyote · #11 08-09-2009, 01:53 AM

I don't see the problem. He's not soloing, he's only adding one eighth note kick. He probably gets a little tired of only two quarters per measure and does a very slight change up. I'm also not sure how that changes the bass line. Seems you could play the same way over both beats.

**bassybill** · #12 08-09-2009, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

I can think of few things (in music) more irritating to me than hearing the exact same drum beat bar after bar. What your drummer is doing is not even remotely "out there". If he chucks in syncopated rolls on the kick, and plays the kick not on the numbers and "ands" but the "e's" (as in 1-e-and-a-2-e) then that could be a bit much, but hitting a kick on on the upbeat is pretty tame.

What you're doing is kind of the equivalent of when guitarists say something like, "What are you doing playing the third? Just alternate between root and fifth for an hour, please."

Quote:

Originally Posted by electracoyote

I don't see the problem. He's not soloing, he's only adding one eighth note kick. He probably gets a little tired of only two quarters per measure and does a very slight change up. I'm also not sure how that changes the bass line. Seems you could play the same way over both beats.

Exactly. Saying that every note the bass plays must coincide with the kick drum for there to be any groove is just plain wrong. Listen to most of the examples mentioned above and that will be obvious. The use of accents to bring a groove to life is what makes playing with a real live drummer a different experience to playing with a drum machine (unless you have software that uses AI to generate that sort of feel - Jamstix is good in this respect).

I'm listening to the Police as I type. Copeland's groove is rock solid and obviously there's some repetition of pattern, but the accents are there too and they sound pretty spontaneous in places to me. Before that I was listening to Bernard Purdie with Steely Dan. 'Nuff said.

Taylor Livingston · #13 08-09-2009, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intenzity

you must be endlessly irritated by Prince

Yep.

Quote:

Aretha Franklin

Yep.

Quote:

Peter Gabriel

Yep.

Quote:

Rage against the Machine

Yep.

Quote:

The Police

Yep

Quote:

ZZ top

Yep.

Quote:

A lot of tunes by those people have a re-occurring kick patterns of 1-2 measure durations that repeat over and over for an entire section, verse or chorus with very slight variation, if any.

But what the OP is talking about is only a slight variation. Now, let me address these:

Quote:

James Brown

You got me on this one. JB's the exception. I could listen to Clyde Stubblefield play the same pattern for a long time before getting bored. But his patterns are at least beyond the plain jane stuff the OP's talking about.

Quote:

Every hip-hop group EVER

You don't know too much about hip hop. Check out DJ Shadow, Quannum, Alias, Prefuse 73, all the Warp and Ninja Tune people, Anticon, etc.

Quote:

Beastie Boys

This is an inaccurate characterization, IMO. Having seen Beastie Boys live, and also Mixmaster Mike's solo work, it is anything but the same beat forever.

Quote:

Bob Marley

Carlton Barret was no chops-monster, but he did not play the same beat over and over.

Taylor Livingston · #14 08-09-2009, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intenzity

YES!

Your job in a band situation is to keep the time and groove. Groove comes from repetition. If you are changing your kick pattern every bar then there is no repetition and it is just random drum hits, that is not a groove. Nothing will lock, you can't set up a kick pattern that lets everyone else predict and then lets them find a rhythmic part that fits. Most songs have a feel and that feel has a some kind of reoccuring pattern that makes the feel what it is. If you are hitting 1 and 3 one bar then the and of 2 then 1 then the and of 3....it is *so* frustrating playing with guys like that you have no idea. Unless all those hits are *worked out* and match the bass line, or the melody and the entire band is all hitting them, it just sounds like you are just off in your own drummer world and not playing the song everyone else is. Your job is not to play with the beat, it is to *be* the common beat reference for 3-4 other people in the band. 2 patterns MAX per song section, verse chorus etc. repeat them over and over so people feel and internalize them.

This affliction hits drummers the worst it appears. They don't know the difference between playing random drum stuff and being a drummer in a band. Turn all this **** off and just play a groove everyone can lock to. THEN you are good a drummer. When you do sixteenth note triplet hi-hats, change your kick drum every measure, do 3 over 4 grooves on a cover tune, you are an idiot. You laugh, but I have played with people like that, it is a miserable experience.

Don't play with guys that do that if you can avoid it, or sit down and say that while they think they are doing cool things, they are not being a good band drummer, they may have chops but when you are doing band stuff, that is the least important skill a drummer needs. Time, feel, and predictability are way way more important - ESPECIALLY if it is the first time he is playing with someone so they have something they can latch onto.

There are lots of guys that own drums. Millions. There are very very few good drummers.

Reading back over your earlier post, I think we should swap drummers. All I can ever find are guys who can only play the same old kick-hat-snare-hat beat forever. I can tell that you and I have a different perspective on music based on your feeling that a kick on an upbeat is bebop. Nothing wrong with that; we both know what we want in a drummer, and hopefully we can both find what we're looking for.

I will say though, that it bums me out when people start defining another musician's "job" in music. As I see it, a drummer's job is to play drums, and it doesn't need to be caged in any further than that. I know I hate having somebody tell me what the "role" of the bass is, so I take into consideration that they probably feel the same way about their own instrument.

**bassybill** · #15 08-09-2009, 03:39 AM

It may be worth mentioning here that bebop and jazz drummers can groove with the best of 'em. I don't think it was implied that they can't, by the way - just sayin' is all.

Quadcam · #16 08-09-2009, 04:16 AM

ok I'll admit it, I'm guilty of changin the kick sometimes, not intentionally but if I'm coming off a fill or something and I've been doing "&1 &3" on the kick I might leave out the first & or something like that. 99% of the time I'll just miss it, you get caught up in counting the fills in your head and sometimes you just neglect your kick or you'll throw it in the wrong spot.

I've been trying to pay more attention to it since starting to play with a bassist, before i was always just jammin with guitards and they could care less about the kick patterns.

fdeck · #17 08-09-2009, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassybill

It may be worth mentioning here that bebop and jazz drummers can groove with the best of 'em. I don't think it was implied that they can't, by the way - just sayin' is all.

True, but I have encountered a lot of jazz drummers who were simply never told that there should be a relationship between the bass line and the kick drum when playing pop music. And we went into jazz because we can't remember to play it the same every time.

JumboJack · #18 08-09-2009, 11:15 AM

Guy's.I'm not talking about playing bebop or funk or what not.It is church worship music.
It is pretty simple stuff.I have been taught and tend to agree (for the most part)that it is best for the bass line and the kick to be in somewhat of agreement.I understand about fills and such.But this is more like he does it one way a couple times and another way some other times...

BurningSkies · #19 08-09-2009, 02:10 PM

Huh. My favorite riddim section is Roots Radics, and if you listen to them play live, Style doensn't play the same thing at all. In fact, they rotate through different patterns to match what's going on on stage and in the crowd.

My favorite drummers know how to groove but also play as musicians, not as drum machines.

woffle · #20 08-09-2009, 02:48 PM

Dificult sometimes to define,listen to Cream with Ginger,just awsome but not my wish from a drummer but this situation worked perfectly well within that concept.
Now listen to Steve Gadd with just about any decent bass player and what have we got,
in the pocket instant groove,my wish from A to Z.We just need to realise what kind of bass player we are or what gets our moter running,and just hope we land gigs with our kinda drummer.All of us think were right most of the time,some of us are right all of the time.
Woffle