flugelhorn?

[blackmail man]

so, lately i've been thinking about taking up another instrument.
i have been playing bass for 11 years or so, but never really progressed past playing by ear. my reading skills are poor, and have never really payed attention during theory.
i've always loved smooth horn lines, and thought if i took up an instrument that is way out of my comfort zone, i could really focus on a few things that are really lacking from my playing.
being a Bb instrument, there is lots of transposing happening, and also plenty of sight reading. i also want to work on harmony and melody. i know would have to be fairly disciplined to get anything out of it, but i'm prepared to put in the time.
has anyone else done a similar thing?

[Asher S]

I've played bass for about 25 years, and I played trumpet before that- still have one. Trumpet is hell. It's a ton of work, makes bass seem like a picnic. It's much easier to visualize scales and intervals on the fretboard or keyboard than it is with a trumpet.

If you really want to work on transposing, harmony, melody, and other foundations of musical theory, take some lessons on bass or piano.

[billjr]

If you've never played a brass instrument, you better be sure about your commitment and time. There are plenty of beginner band books that offer easy lessons on the basics of theory and learning the notes, but there is a lot more to getting a good sound. Whereas a bass, guitar or piano make there own tone, with a brass instrument you will have to buzz into the mouthpiece, and it takes years to build up the muscle control in your lips, cheeks and neck to get a good tone and have good control. I played trombone for over eight years as a youngster, and when I tried to get back into playing a few years ago, I realized how long it was going to take to get my lips back in shape, and gave up. The big advantage I had from playing the trombone, is that it uses the bass cleff, and so it was much easier to learn to read music with the bass. I knew the notes on the music, just had to learn the fretboard. Also, the mouthpiece was bigger, and was a much better fit for my lips. I never could squeeze them to fit the tiny trumpet mouthpieces.

I'm not mentioning this to discourage you, just to emphasize that you might want to seriously consider some lessons, at least to get started. A good instructor will give you a bunch of good exercises, that if done everyday, will build up your chops as fast as possible. Your lips are like any other muscle, so you won't be able to just play and play and play to get better faster. It takes specialized exercises, and the real growth takes place during the rest, just like lifting weights.

Most cities have good band rental stores, so you could get started without having to put out a lot of money to purchase a horn. Those stores will also have the many method books that band students need. Probably not as many available for the fluglehorn, as most beginners start out on trumpet or coronet and later switch over when they want to add another weapon to their arsenal. Kind of like adding that five stringer.

But the results could be well worth it. Good luck and I hope you succeed.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by billjr

If you've never played a brass instrument, you better be sure about your commitment and time.
Those stores will also have the many method books that band students need. Probably not as many available for the fluglehorn, as most beginners start out on trumpet or coronet and later switch over when they want to add another weapon to their arsenal. Kind of like adding that five stringer.

But the results could be well worth it. Good luck and I hope you succeed.

+1 to all the comments on effort needed for brass playing. I have a undergrad degree in trumpet and grad degree on french horn.

I will have to note disagreement on the underlined section above. While it's true that most beginners start on cornet or trumpet and true too that the flugelhorn is an addtion to a professionals collection of instruments, the flugelhorn would use the same books as a trumpet or cornet. So any beginning trumpet book would be the same thing for cornet or flugelhorn.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Flugelhorn is nice. I play trumpet, and want one. I was a French Horn major. But... ...I tend to think that time with a piano is going to pay more dividends than any monophonic instrument (brass/woodwind). If I had to do it all over again, I believe my general musicianship would have been better served with a focus on piano than trumpet or any brass instrument. Still, if the instrument speaks to you, and you're motivated, then I would never advocate against involving yourself with any other instrument.

[Marcus Johnson]

I really enjoyed my time on the flugelhorn. I was a trumpet major all through college, even while I was gigging on bass. But when I was playing at home for enjoyment, I really kept going back to the flugel.

If you want to hear some truly great flugelhorn playing, check out the reissue of Kenny Wheeler's "Gnu High" album from the '70s.... with Keith Jarrett, Dave Holland, and Jack DeJohnette.

[Joebone]

There's a lot to be said for using another instrument to recharge your approach to your initial instrument. Over the last three years I've been playing bass not only for the inherent pleasure of it, but also to try to "relearn" how to learn, in order to bring some new focus to my trombone playing.

On 'bone, I played well, but switched careers when synthesizers knocked a whole lot of horn and string players out of a lot of studio work in the mid-80's. I continued to gig for a few years, but rarely practiced and fell into a lot of bad habits before stopping completely. Over the past 10 years I've had a number of false starts, all unsatisfactory.

I played bass as a lark at several times --mostly garage band action in college, law school and a bit beyond -- but was never serious. However, three years ago my kid started playing bass, and while he has pretty much stopped, I got the point that it would be a great axe for me to get some musical jollies - given the day gig, I often can't practice except very late at night -- impossible with the 'bone, but doable on bass. It also dawned on me that if I took bass seriously for a while, I'd perhaps learn how to learn, and could then tackle the 'bone with a new perspective.

On bass, I turn out to be as spacey a student as I was on 'bone, but I have a few good books I work out of, I took a few lessons from a teacher with very refined technique and a great attitude, even though his path is not one I ultimately want to follow, and developed the following things:

focus on ergonomics

focus on fundamentals

more patience with the learning process

So now I've started bone again in the last 6-8 weeks, from pretty much ground zero. By focusing on ergonomics, I've now made some decisions on horns (which horn? which mouthpiece? which mouthpiece with which horn?) that needlessly tortured me for years, and am developing a practice routine that is facilitating some real progress in areas that have previously been a problem.

So I am a HUGE fan of taking up another axe in order to renew your relationship with your main instrument.

That said, your choice of a brass instrument does indeed demand a high level of commitment if you want to perform presentably. Blowing air through pursed lips, into a tube in order to amplify the lip vibrations, is a decidedly unnatural act! Your fingers get a workout through daily activities -- like blogging -- but I doubt your daily life contains any activity that would condition you for playing a brass instrument -- except for aerobic exercise, and you should consider that dimension of the brass experience as well -- I've had to acknowledge that my horn playing deteriorated as I allowed myself to get into crappy shape over the years, and I'm now also trying to attack that problem. But consider how rock-and-roll largely muscled brass instruments aside in the 1950's not only because of the new sound, but also because one can get to a passable performance level a whole lot faster on guitar or electric bass than on any wind instrument (perhaps tenor sax is the easiest of the horns to achieve a basic level, but it's still harder than on guitar). I think all axes are equally difficult to truly master, but it's no accident that bands rarely feature horn players -- it's just plain harder to get to an "acceptable" level on brass and winds!

If you are serious about this, and if your reading is not where you want it to be, it may make a lot of sense to stick with a bass-clef instrument - trombone and tuba come to mind, and I've always admired those who double on bass and tuba, as there is a natural synergy to that double.

But if you are really hearing another horn in your mind, then you should pursue it! One word of warning - flugelhorn is harder to play in tune than the trumpet, so you might want to consider starting with trumpet -- in fact, flugel is generally a double for trumpeters, and a trumpeter on a jazz or society gig will generally bring both.

Final piece of advice - DEFINITELY get a teacher, and pick the teacher carefully - ask brass players you know about who they like and why. Trumpet teachers can be particularly scary, as they often have rigid ideas about how the mouthpiece should fit on your face, how to direct your airstream, the extent to which pressure against your teeth should be present, and how to develop strength and the high register - it's not like just stringing your 5-string with a C on top, or copping an axe with 24 or more frets! And a lot of trumpeters have this weird, macho rigidity thing - I think it comes with the common obsession with power and high-range chops, as well as the fact that lead trumpet truly drives the train on group phrasing in many contexts, so it's not a gig for wallflowers. But many trumpeters have been screwed up by bad teachers who insist there is only one right way to play -- I've seen some so profoundly set-back, forced to play their teacher's way, as to have to abandon professional aspirations!

If you go down this road, I hope you find a good teacher, who acknowledges that we all have different mouth and airstream structures and helps you to develop technique that works for you. Here's a quick litmus test - ask them what they think of Carmine Caruso. If they've never heard of him, so be it. If they are dismissive, shine them on. If they know something about Carmine's approach and try to integrate it with their work, kiss your lucky stars and grab on. I've never googled Carmine, but would expect you'd find recognition of his role as patron saint to the NYC commercial brass community for 50 years before he passed at a ripe old age. Carmine used to say that he'd had students he hadn't helped, but he'd never hurt anyone. You'd be surprised by how many leading trumpet teachers can not make the same claim.

Good luck with this - I love the idea of the brotherhood of brass gaining a new member!

[billjr]

Joebone, your post reminded me of a duo I saw this past summer in New Orleans at ther waterfront. It was a female singer that also played clarinet, and a guy playing the tuba. That was one of the coolest duos I ever heard. That guy was just jamming on some really basic jazz/blues/country bass lines with that tuba.

BassChuck, thanks for the info on the horns. I guess I've always thought there was more of a difference between the horns, sort of like a violin and viola.

Blackmailman, there is one great advantage to being a brass player. With all those lip and buzzing exercises, your lips will get a rep of there own. We brass guys were known as the best kissers in the band. You see, being a band geek does have it's moments!!!

[Joebone]

Yes, tuba smokes, and there is a great New Orleans tuba tradition. Check out the tuba player with the Dirty Dozen Brass Band - funky, funky, FUNKY!

[blackmail man]

[quote]Blackmailman, there is one great advantage to being a brass player. With all those lip and buzzing exercises, your lips will get a rep of there own. We brass guys were known as the best kissers in the band. You see, being a band geek does have it's moments!!!/QUOTE]

hahahaha!! love it!

thanks for all the handy hints. i've been recommended a teacher buy a few of the local jazz gurus, one that seems pretty flexible in terms of styles and approaches.

i love the sound of flugel, and as someone that is really getting into smokey jazz/house home recording, i'd like to add another texture.

my big drama with taking lessons on bass again, is that all the top teachers in my area know me too well, and i tend to do fill in work for them when they double book etc. they know where im at with my playing and just wanna show me chops.

my main reason for doing this is that i always learn better when im way out of my comfort zone.

[Marcus Johnson]

I would suggest that you get together with a brass teacher and try it out before you lay out your cash, just to see if you have an affinity for it. I've played double bass professionally for decades, and it's one of the more difficult instruments to get happening, especially if you play any arco. But brass instruments are maybe even more difficult to play well. They can be pure torture on some days. You'll definitely be out of your comfort zone for awhile.

[miloold]

Hi - I am doing exactly the opposite - a life long brass player just starting to learn bass. Primarily a flugel player - love the sound and had many tours on flugel. The thing about brass playing is that it is very physical - ie it uses and requires a lot of muscle work so you need to be 'fit' - this requires very regular practice to build up and maitian the muscles around your mouth. To be honest I have recently given away serious brass playing as I no longer have the time to dedicate to regular practice - hence my move to bass - granted it still requires regular practice but if I miss a day or two now and then I can catch it up - this is not so easy playing brass

[Pacman]

Totally unrelated to Technique. Moved to Miscellaneous.