The Grateful Dead

[bassist15]

Ive always really wondered what the hype was abotu these guys? The times ive listened to them Ive really never liked it. also can someone explain what thier drummers were always talking abotu liek space groove and all that. Ive really never heard much grooving in their sound. Maybe Ive listened to the wrong stuff. I do like their old blues covers though.

[gribuski]

Where to start...

I have never been a big fan. I'll say I kind of respect them, though. Most of my friends were huge Deadheads, and the big difference between me and them: mind altering substances. I've never been into that (I don't even drink), and I don't mean to try and paint a picture with one stroke, but in my varied experience, that seems to be the determining factor.

They've got a couple of good albums (Terrapin Station, Workingman's Dead), but I can't listen to live stuff. I like a good jam as much as anyone, and even listen to a few jamband type bands myself, but it just meanders too much for me. They had this idea that everyone should be able to play whatever they wanted whenever, so basically a lot of just sounds like 8 people on stage playing at the same time. They do have a couple of improvs that I enjoy, but to listen to nothing but The Dead is insane.

And don't get me started on Phil Lesh (the bass player). While I admire his influence and respect him immensely for helping to develop active basses and coming up with some pretty original lines, I don't like his tone . And something about the way he plays, it just rubs me the wrong way. I've never been able to put it into words...

Basically, I'll say that you're just 15 (according to you profile). Its one of those things that one day you'll understand what the 'big deal' is.

[Rattman]

"..They've got a couple of good albums (Terrapin Station, Workingman's Dead), but I can't listen to live stuff. I like a good jam as much as anyone, and even listen to a few jamband type bands myself, but it just meanders too much for me. They had this idea that everyone should be able to play whatever they wanted whenever, so basically a lot of just sounds like 8 people on stage playing at the same time. They do have a couple of improvs that I enjoy, but to listen to nothing but The Dead is insane..."

This also I how I feel about The Grateful Dead. For me, jam bands get old..fast.. and about
the ONLY one I ever liked was The Allman Brothers. Which of course goes directly to the
heart of the matter between these two bands: Who had the better of the two bassists?
ABB did with Barry Oakley who was extremely innovative, jazzy and played better gear

[ddnidd1]

If you want them to sound good you need to be really wrecked. If you're straight, they're mediocre at best and that's being very kind to them.

hype, hype, hype

[Eric Cioe]

I love the Dead and don't do drugs. Do you have to be jacked up to listen to Coltrane? I don't.

[Eric Cioe]

Originally Posted by Rattman

ABB did with Barry Oakley who was extremely innovative, jazzy and played better gear

You're kidding. Oakley and Lesh are probably my two favorite bassists, and Oakley was great. Great! But Lesh took things to a whole different level.

As far as gear goes, I like both of their basses (and my Jazz is a lot like Berry's, with a humbucker in the front position), but thought Phil's tone was cooler.

[cosmicevan]

it's like anything else...some people like it some people don't. I personally really dig the dead and a lot of the other jam bands. say what you want about hype hype hype and mind altering substances, but there is a certain 'it' about jam band music that you either get or you don't. call it an aquired taste, call it a long attention span...whatever you like.

the dead had many eras of their sound and were known for their killer live shows, not their studio work. pick up a dicks pick or a live album or ask your local deadhead for a copy of a great show and then give it a chance. i initially hated jam-based music, then was introduced to the correct starter material and found a love for it. i now even play jam music.

back to the coltrane example...i couldn't appreciate what was happening the first time i heard one of his solos.

[Rattman]

Originally Posted by Eric Cioe

You're kidding. Oakley and Lesh are probably my two favorite bassists, and Oakley was great. Great! But Lesh took things to a whole different level.

As far as gear goes, I like both of their basses (and my Jazz is a lot like Berry's, with a humbucker in the front position), but thought Phil's tone was cooler.

Hey! You stole my thunder! hahahaha! great post however.
Your point is very valid..

-Rattman

[bassist15]

Originally Posted by gribuski

Basically, I'll say that you're just 15 (according to you profile). Its one of those things that one day you'll understand what the 'big deal' is.

Yea , i may only be 15 , but I was WAY into psycedelic music when I was around 13. I read a bunch of books about it listened to a bunch of recordings . Ive moved way on since then but I know the whole experience with alot of the bands has to do with drugs. (Which ive never done , and never will do). I do respect the Dead alot . They had a huge following and are even looked up to these days . I just really never liked a whoel lot of the music. As I look back at my psycedelic music obsession I was always getting really disapointed. I think "In-A gadda-da-vidda" was the top song and that was trippy . Everything else sounded like folk artists with electric instruments.After really getting into classic rock ive gone from that to loveing jazz/funk/old r&B/reggae more groove based music. What sparked me was the talked about the drummers "space-groove" it sounded interesting to me.
I also really love listening to the Allman Brothers improvisions.
I also really like what Ive heard from COltrane

[BurningSkies]

I'm a fan of specific eras.

I like 70/71,73, 77/78, 81, and 87/88

The real early stuff 1966ish is fun too, but really a different band.

[Dan1099]

I really like "Friend of the Devil" and things of that ilk. Any other tunes like that I should check out?

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Dan1099

I really like "Friend of the Devil" and things of that ilk. Any other tunes like that I should check out?

Check out all of American Beauty and Workingman's Dead. They both were recorded at the same time and have a combination of country/folk/bluegrass/blues. The infamous 'Bear's Choice' was from the 70/71 tour season, where they did an acoustic set then an electric set, so you get a side of each. There are some nice Filmore East shows floating around from that tour, where you get the full disc or two of the acoustic stuff and a set or two electric. Also, NRPS toured and played with them for lots of that tour, and you can find those sets too.

Otherwise, I'd look at the 'Reckoning' album. It was recorded in the 1980 tour season where they once again did acoustic/electric sets. The only did one set of west coast shows (Warfield in SF) and one set of east coast shows (Radio City NYC).

Those are the best bets for the more acoustic stuff. You should also check out 'Old and In the Way' which was a Garcia side project...Bluegrass stuff, with him on banjo.

[gribuski]

Originally Posted by bassist15

Yea , i may only be 15 , but I was WAY into psycedelic music when I was around 13. I read a bunch of books about it listened to a bunch of recordings . Ive moved way on since then but I know the whole experience with alot of the bands has to do with drugs. (Which ive never done , and never will do).

Wow, you guys grow up fast now!! When I was 13, if I had heard the Dead it would have freaked me out. I didn't mean that age comment as a slight in any way, my apologies, I was just operating from remembering my youth. I didn't really get into playing until I was like 16 though.

Have you checked out any Frank Zappa? Based on your musical tastes, you would probably like it. Get Hot Rats ...it changed my life.

[gribuski]

Originally Posted by cosmicevan

it's like anything else...some people like it some people don't. I personally really dig the dead and a lot of the other jam bands. say what you want about hype hype hype and mind altering substances, but there is a certain 'it' about jam band music that you either get or you don't. call it an aquired taste, call it a long attention span...whatever you like.

I too dig a lot of other jambands, but not as much as I used too because they all started to sound alike, honestly. I'm pretty particular about what I like. There's a lot of people on that scene that wil get super-excited about any 20 minute jam that they see. I get bored during those really fast, but sometimes a jam will click and its great.

The Dead was like that. And so was Phish, even though in a totally different way. I was a HUGE Phish-head for about 5 years, and I'm the same way with them now. There's a few shows/jams that I just have to listen to every once in a while.

I agree that there definitely is an it to jam music, that if you are into it, you can't get anywhere else. And if you don't care for, odds are you probably won't.

Oh, and I also reccommend "One From the Vault" from the Dead. Its pretty straight forward (comparitively), and is a solid set for someone looking to get into them to check out.

[Andrew Jones]

I was a hardcore deadhead right before I became a musician I give them much props while still being very critical.



Phil is the reason I play bass. Just noticing the personality on the bass led my ear down that low road.

I Can't nor would I ever want to play at all like him, But I have to give him his due.



First of all they were a fantastic cover band they were serious music geeks and it shows in the choice of covers.


The same diverse influences can be heard in their songwriting.



They were very good songwriters, for me alot of this credic has to be givin the the 2 lyricist of the band, fantastic story tellers.

They turned me onto the consept of Improve and free jazz regardless of how good they were at it.


Every one of them (maby not Billy K.) had a distinct personallity on thier axe You hear them play 5 notes and you know who it was.


They pointed at the map and said to my ears this is New Orleans, we love it and so will you.


That said,,,,,,,,,,,,,,


Their sloppy, Laborous , Melodramatic,Overstated,,Ext.







"Thier not the best at what they do,Their the only ones who do what they do".





Aj

[bearfoot]

I nearly bugged out when I saw the Dead. I was not into the scene, and was not even a bassist yet. I was a serious, tightly wrapped college music major on a mission to absorb something of what Garcia's playing was about. It was 6-21-95. They played 'Fire on the Mountain' for what seemed like hours, and my mind went into internal convulsions over the unchanging tonality. I was almost nauseated by the tonic note near the end. Hippies were dancing and bumping into me, goddamit.
Then, something happened. A collective mind sort of thing occured. There was an unseen spaceship there. The songs seemed to be sung in unknown languages. Time stretched out and I could perceive the thoughts of other people there. Now, most of you are thinking, this is a drug experience, a hallucination. Many people have experiences like this while they are high on drugs, but what makes it so special to me is, and what validates the experience is, I had at that point never done any kind of drug. I hadn't drank anyone's suspicious kool-aid, or anything like that. For me, this happened naturally, and it is one of those many life-changing Grateful Dead stories. By the end of the show, the dancing hippies weren't annoying any more, and I just 'got it'.
This is what the Dead were about, creating an environment for these kind of experiences. For whatever reason, the Great Spirit chose them as a conduit. Shaman drugs are often used, and can be helpful, but I am here to tell you for sure that they are truly not necessary, and especially with the common pitfall of thinking that the drugs made the experience happen.
But getting back to the original question about the 'space' ~ it has a lot to do with polyrhythm. The whole band would play polyrhythms, and when the show went into the drum-space part, polyrhythm was featured. Somehow, different simultaneous rhythms can change one's consciousness. If the mind is at least a little open to it. In my case, my mind was open because I was there to absorb musical technique from Garcia, and I had this experience despite hating hippies in general. It's not a 'groove' in the conventional sense, in fact it confounds the conventional sense, even enrages it by not going where expected.
To understand this kind of music, you have to first accept that it is not just about playing technique, and the showmanship thereof. There is a greater element at work. Why were the Dead such a powerful conduit for this greater element? Hard to say. I think it had a lot to do with their not trying to be 'rock stars', and their general humbleness and humanity.

[superbassman2000]

i like the grateful dead and many other jam bands a lot. I agree with cosmicevan, you either get it, or you don't. not to exclude people, but thats the way it is. same with jaco, same with metallica, same with elvis.

personally, drugs or not, there are some jambands thoughout history that were just plain tremendous musicians. I think some of the things that these guys were doing, and many things that some jambands are doing now are really quite amazing

[baba]

Big Deadhead here. I've seen upward to around 50 shows, mostly between 87 and 92.

First understand that they have played for a LONG time and they sound quite different in different eras. Some years they sounded great, some they sounded bad. The best and worst shows I've ever seen were the Grateful Dead. Eras, peaks of drug abuse, personnel changes, and song material choice aside, they would vary wildly (even within a 3 night run) for one main reason. They took big chances every night. They constantly and intentionally ventured out of their comfort zone in hopes of finding "it". Sometimes this resulted in a train wreck and other times they created magic. Sometimes they train wrecked into magic within the same night, set, or jam. Consistency was not their forte, but they had the ability to reach a special place that I've seen no other band reach.

If you want easily accessible studio stuff, Workingmans Dead and American Beauty is a good place to start. Just understand that they pulled songs for their shows from a 250-300 song list so no single album or show is really representative of them. Also check out "Live Dead" ('69?)and Reckoning (acoustic '80?)for some great live tracks on different ends of the spectrum.

BurningSkies listed some good years for live stuff.

[PaulMacCnj]

I never listened to or played Dead music until about a year ago when I started jamming with a big Deadhead. He's been to over 300 Dead shows, over 60 Jerry shows and numerous shows of the remaining members (Lesh, etc.) He quickly got me into stuff like "Sugaree", "Cassidy", "Bertha" and Jerry's versions of "Catfish John", "Thrill is Gone" and "Russian Lullaby". I'm not much into their studio work. I think they sounded too confined and it was the live performances where they sounded and played their best. I now understand why Deadheads will call out a song played at a specific venue and date since the dynamics of the band would produce incredible versions of songs.

As for Phil Lesh, I regard him as one of the best bassists around. His style is to float to and from playing the low groove, creating melodies and harmonies, and bringing the band to different levels within a song. His use of going well beyond the root octave added so much color where he could have so easily stuck to a simple root-5th-octave pattern.

The Dead's music is far different than a lot of popular "radio" music where the guitars, bass and keys are often closely locked into each other. If you're not used to that type of arrangement, it can sound like chaos, sloppiness, whatever. Instead, think of each individual part filling a certain space in the mix instead of an in-your-face, all-out blast of sound. It took me awhile to appreciate it and now I really enjoy their music.

Paul Mac

[Lazylion]

I've got Europe '72 on right now!
I saw the Dead live 5 times - more than any other band. Not because I'm a Deadhead - I'm not. It's just that they were always coming around! Of course, this was back when I had plenty of money and time. Pre-kids, duh. But I never drove 100s of miles for a show, never traveled around the country. Despite that, I count Phil Lesh as one of my main influences.
With the Dead, it's a feel thing, a vibe thing. Bearfoot put it well. You kind of get swept up in it. Funny, I don't like what I've heard of the solo work of any of them nearly as much as the band together. Some things I liked:
They toured a bunch, so opportunities to see them were plentiful.
They played long shows. Real long, sometimes.
They loved to experiment. They never just regurgitated their hits. And they tried a wide range of styles.
They could medley from one song to another like no other band.
Phil is cool.
I knew lots of cool folks that loved them. Still do. They'll drive 100s of miles for Phil And Friends!
Can't think of any other bands with such a loyal fanbase, who would travel! Jimmy Buffett is the only act that even comes close IMO.

Uh-oh, was that an autistic list?