Great Solo Tone Sucks With Group?

[PocketGroove82]

Hey everyone,
I've heard people saying that the tone you love to hear when practicing or playing solo type stuff often doesn't work well in a band setting. And lately I've been hearing comments like "your tone is muddy/woofy", "we can't hear the initial attack of the notes when you walk", and basically that my jazz combo wants my tone to change.
These comments are coming from brass players in my jazz combo. And when I sit there fiddling around with my eq trying to get something better while they listen to the room sound, they tell me to stop and that it sounds fine when I crank the treble to max sizzle and push the mids.
And it's funny cause I put flats on my bass to get a mellow, jazzier tone and the tone they say works lacks bass/thump, and out sizzles a sadowsky with the treble maxed!
It's sorta pissing me off.
Granted we have A LOT of low end in this band, since we have a heavy left hand keyboard player and a trombone. So I understand them wanting me to cut through more.
Anyways, if anyone has been through a situation like this and has some advice. I'd love to hear some. Thanks

p.s. I've been playing a maple necked HH SR5 with flats, and an ibanez BTB 5 string with dual bart buckers.

[PocketGroove82]

Josh, I'm usually playing direct through a mixer out to two Bose L1s running with B1s. Keys and vocals are also going through the rig.

I've usually favored the bridge pup 60ish/40ish, but I've been using a scooped EQ with the mids cut in comparison to the bass and treble. Next week at rehearsal I try more mids, less bass and see what they say.

[PocketGroove82]

The Bose L1 system is ultra ultra ultra clean!
The only catch is some bassists don't like them because they don't really push air, but it's so easy to get a nice mix and it's just totally pure, because what you're hearing is what the room is hearing. We use them for small living room gigs, and medium sized hotel conference room jobs.
As far as I know, the mixer we use has effects type stuff for the vocals while the keys, and bass are on our own channels with our own eqs.

As far as starting flat is concerned, I'll give it a shot. I'm not really a fan of the flat stingray sound and, now that I think about it, for ten years I've been boosting the bass, cutting the treble, and leaving the mids flat on my rays.
I'll try the cutting vs. boosting thing out, too. thanks

[Marcus Willett]

Yeah, I've found that in general a bass tone that really sits well in the mix and sounds "even" tends to sound (by itself) very "clanky" and is much brighter and with less fullness than I could ever stand hearing. It's just an unfortunate result of all those instruments eating up sonic space. Don't feel bad, it happens to other instruments too. If you spend a lot of time mixing (I've spent a fair amount), you quickly discover this sonic space concept and the whole "sounds good solo/crappy in a mix" phenomenon.

Try getting a long cable or wireless setup and listen to you bass from far away (like where the brass players are) during a rehearsal or something and you'll probably get a better idea of what you are dealing with.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

I've usually favored the bridge pup 60ish/40ish, but I've been using a scooped EQ with the mids cut in comparison to the bass and treble. Next week at rehearsal I try more mids, less bass and see what they say.

IME scooped EQ rarely works well in any musical situation. Try everything flat on the bass, amp, and PA if you're using one, and see how they like that.

[trevcda]

Is it possible that the heavy left hand of the keyboard in the mix is making the bass sound more muddy than it really is? Rolling off some of the low end in the keys may clean up some of this problem. Maybe using a bass rig with a DI might give it some power. I've played through the Bose system and, except for purely acoustic reinforcement situations, didn't really care for the result.

[PocketGroove82]

I play in a military band, so I'm stuck using whatever equipment the band has, lest I damage my own equipment.
I'd love to bring a bass rig, but most of the jobs these particular groups do are in 3/4 star general's living room or an intimate hotel ballroom, so the less equipment we bring, the happier the general's wife is...and if she is happy...well, you know how it goes.

I would love to dial out some bass from the keyboard player. In fact, I might try to be sneaky and try cutting some on the PA when his back is turned. This dude did way to many solo piano gigs, so he is used to filling up a good bit of the sonic space.

[bucephylus]

IME, this is a fundamental issue that a lot of players take time to learn. It is also why some of the gorgeous boutique gear doesn't cut it and why Fenders rule. IMO of course.

In particular, the Jazz bass has a lower mid clank which almost sounds ugly by itself, but which sits just so in a mix, particularly with guitars. I'll go even further and say that the Acoustic 360, though huge and now nearly gone, emphasized that lower mid clank better than any other rig I've ever heard.

We have a lot of gear now that sounds more attractive on its own, but for the most part a lot of the improvements are not improvements in the mix. IMO, this is where Roger Sadowsky has put his efforts, and why he has such a faithful following; and also why a lot of up and coming cats don't get it right away.

EOR

[Askia]

So, yes you should check your own sound as well, but cut the keyboard players left hand! If there is a bass already you shouldn't add a second, becouse the result is mud. Keyboard players should know it. If they don't know it, after loosing the left hand, they realize it!

[Lobster11]

This is a really interesting thread, and very timely for me. I'm having this problem with a bass I just recently acquired. (Interestingly, in light of a previous post, it's one of those "gorgeous botique" ones. I never had this problem with my Fender either!) It's a beautiful Karl Hoyt custom job, armed with a pair of Ken Armstrong soapbar humbuckers and a Bartolini 2-band preamp. Playing with it solo I can find lots of great tones, but in a band context at volume I just can't seem to dial in a sound that works. As others have said, favoring the bridge pup helps, as does cutting the low end a bit. But I still am not happy with the sound in this context, and I love the bass so much aesthetically and ergonomically that I really want to figure out a solution.

One idea that I've been toying with has been to rewire the pups. As is, each of the two humbuckers is wired in series (with the pair wired together in parallel). I've been thinking about adding a couple of mini-switches so each humbucker can be switched between parallel and serial, the theory being that the parallel mode would produce a more focused tone with stronger upper-mids. I was thinking that this might be especially effective for cleaning up the tone from the neck pup and helping it cut through better. I'd be very interested in everyone's thoughts on this -- do you think it might help?

[gottawalk]

Originally Posted by Joshua

You don't say what kind of amp setup you have (blank profiles are bad ), but it sounds like they might be looking for more mids (which also might equate to "less lows"). Mids would help you with more "punch" rather than low end, and will most probably help at the attack of each note.

Were I you, I would set everything flat on both bass and amp, and favor the bridge pickups on whichever bass you use. See how that works.

Joshua; would this idea work well with a fretless, too? Different sound and presence than a fretted, but probably the same theory...?

[malicous]

Originally Posted by Marcus Willett

Yeah, I've found that in general a bass tone that really sits well in the mix and sounds "even" tends to sound (by itself) very "clanky" and is much brighter and with less fullness than I could ever stand hearing.

I have found the same to be true for me, specially when I am playing in one of my regular bands that has a sizable brass section, in addition to a piano, a keybourd playing strings and two guitars (one lectric and one accoustic). I usually set my trebble and high-mids just a little higher than I like, the low-mids exactly where I want them, and the lows just a little softer than I like. This usually gives me a good sound that sits well in the mix when the whole band is playing.
If I am playing with a keyboardist with a heavy left hand (in spite of my best efforts to avoid working with such) i just go for the really mid-heavy sound and blend the puckups in favour of the bridge pickup.

[4Mal]

EQ everything flat and work from there. The Bose sucks for bass, big time. Sounds like you're kinda stuck there.

I want a jazz bass burpy kinda solo tone and frankly when my hands are busy soloing, they don't also have time to reach the controls of on on-board EQ and make micro-adjustments whilst soliing and hopefully holding the pocket together. It's kinda busy in a trio setting, eh ?

I've got feet through and one of them usually finds to right switch on A Radial BassBone. Do yo' bad sef a favah! Check on out.

The BB is one of the most useful items I have ever encountered for an actual working stiff. Sexy it ain't but useful it is.

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

There's a tendency in human ear to "enjoy" low and high frequencies, while middle frequencies generate some kind of rejection, since they tend to make things to sound like an old radio. That can be clearly seen on the way most people EQ their home stereos: The typical "V" or "smiley" curve. Problem with this approach is that, while it gives a nice, "hi-fi" tone, it gets buried very easily within a band. I used to be a "scooped mids" player for a long time since that's what most musicians in tropical music bands like, but at some point I started to get frustrated with the fact that some nuances in my playing couldn't be heard, like little melodic fills or harmonics. One night I decided to take the risk (maybe my bandmates would throw eggs at me because of that) of turning the "contour" button from my amp off, and compensate the change with more lows and highs in the graphic equalizer without cutting mids. Wow! What a difference! I could hear everything! Again, I had to compensate the apparent loss of low and high frequencies, but the most important thing is that those crucial mid frequencies are now present in my tone.

I always associate the role of middle frequencies with that of any but the lead wind instrument in a big band. Let's say you're rehearsing a full brass & woodwind band playing a heavy block-harmonized phrase. Then you stop and tell the guy/gal who plays the second tenor sax to play his/her part alone. Most likely, it will be an incomprehensible nonsense of notes that sound "bad" in that context, but those notes are a key component to create that big, full sounding chord when the tutti time comes, for sure.

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

"we can't hear the initial attack of the notes when you walk"

Weird. I'm not a dedicated jazz player, but in rehearsals for my seldom jazz gigs, most of the times I'm told that my attack is too noticeable and I'm asked to walk in a "lighter" way, with almost no attack.

[fullrangebass]

I totally agree that the Jazz bass sound has that honky notch that gets heard in a band situation. this is a great start point to see where you should direct your sound. One thing with my Dingwalls is that they sit in ANY situation without any adjustment. Most of my other basses need some sort of adjustment to perfectly sit in EVERY band situation (it's not a bad thing, but i've been spoiled for life)

[PocketGroove82]

It's good to hear some other people's experience with this problem, and I've definitely learned some interesting stuff from you guys...and we're only on page one!

1. I never considered how sweet sounding boutique basses that sound great for solo/bass focuses styles might not function or provide the right tone, or sit right in the mix when it comes to a different musical setting.

2. I've never though about the relation of the freq. spectrum to a musical arrangement, and how the two things that leap out of a piece of music are usually what's on top and what's on bottom. I never knew why people eq'd their stereo's with the "smiley" shape. And it does seem like the high-fi amps have the scooped mid nob on them...like eden's enhance nob.

I'm thinking the high-fi sound just isn't working for me with this particular instrumentation/PA/group of players.

[Rakie]

Somebody said it best, of course this isn't an exact quote and while the meaning is there, something is lost in translation.


"This is what I found while playing in a mix... If you set up your bass to have a nice, fat, warm tone by yourself. When you plug in to play in the mix, its going to be muddy way too deep sounding. If you set up the "Perfect" slap tone, or a nice solo tone with good highs thats sounds crystal clear and "Just right" in the mix it will sound Shrill and brittle..."


This is very true.



NOTE: I only read the Original Post so, if this was just said, YAY !

[Rano Bass]

I found out about that the hard way, i bought a beautiful Tobias Growler with a single MM style bartolini pickup because i loved the tone when i heard someone playing it at a music store, it sounded tremendously good and the slap sound was something out of this world. I tried it, took it home, and when i took it to the gig i was gone from the mix, couldn't hear a thing i was playing.
I really tried everything i could to keep the bass, i always wanted a Tobias and wanted to keep it but after like ten days i went back to the music shop and traded the Tobias back for a Fender Roscoe Beck which sounded not so good soloed but great in the mix.
Lesson learned, use basses with good, natural midrange presence.

I generally agree with all the posts so far, with a bit of room for my .02.

For half of my bass-playing life I've reveled in the comfort of the scooped mids setup. It just sounded right to me, and there's nothing like being comfortable with how you sound. You play better, and you don't think too much about anything else except playing. The problem is when the people around you aren't feeling it. I really wasn't helping the band out by sticking to this conviction, and this inevitably made me uncomfortable.

The two years I spent as a musician in HK was a tone-finding experience. I really had to push the amp (due as well to bad acoustics and an always-full bar), and I went out of my comfort zones. I played with the bass a quarter from 0, the highs a quarter from loudest, and the high mids a bit less than the highs. It really was mind-boggling at first, which in the end becane mind opening. Not only did they hear me for the first time (we also had a keyboard player, and there always has to be a halfway point between them and bassists not to take the same freqs), it also cleaned up my playing because my ear adjusted to new conditions.

Now whenever I hear smiley mixed basses, I actually find that they sound funny, knowing that most of the time, they really just don't work in a band context.

[Showdown]

I usually boost the low mids, about 250hz, to help cut through a band. Maybe cut the lows a little. Then adjust the highs until it sounds good. YMMV.