Guitarists playing bass?

[RAM]

On Chicago's Craigs List today there is an argument brewing that's really kind of funny. It began by a bass teacher creating an ad titled, "Friends don't let friends learn bass from guitarists".

On TB, such a generalization would most certainly be met with the wrath of uber-trolls (such as myself), but I think there's an interesting argument that can be made here...on both sides of the fence.

My own opinion is that there's two types of guitarists that *could* be included in this generalization. The first kind is one who's technically proficient (dare I say talented???) on guitar, whereas the other kind is one who's simply a talented musician / songwriter who's main instrument happens to be guitar. That said, I'd go so far as to say the former is less likely to understand the intricacies of how bass fits in to a song than the latter. Of course, the ad (and subsequent responses) don't seem to make this distinction, so perhaps I'm the only one who sees it this way?

I've seen a large number of great guitarists who could wield a pick and run scales up and down the neck of the bass but couldn't PLAY the bass. That's not to say guitarists couldn't be great bass players, in their own right. However these types of "bass players" (and I put that in quotes for a reason) don't necessarily "get" how to play the bass. IMO, of course.

I'm curious about everyone's thoughts.

[fdeck]

I think bass technique is sufficiently different that you want to learn from someone who knows it, and who can properly critique your playing. Guitarists who haven't mastered the bass tend to harbor a lot of understandable misconceptions.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by fdeck

I think bass technique is sufficiently different that you want to learn from someone who knows it, and who can properly critique your playing. Guitarists who haven't mastered the bass tend to harbor a lot of understandable misconceptions.

Such as? There is absolutely no reason why someone who is self taught on guitar cannot do the same thing on bass. There are many folks who play guitar and bass very well who have never had a lesson, and there is nothing about learning one instrument that makes it more difficult to learn another.

[groooooove]

theres musicians, then theres guitarists. you can be a musician whos main instrument is guitar. or you could be into playing loud and having a whammy bar that you use entirely too much.

really it depends on the specific person. i know some stereotypical guitarists that can play bass pretty well. i guess it depends on how their real sense of groove and feel is.

[Kevinmach]

This is one of those threads that could go on for 10 pages because it's a debatable topic, or could not make it past one page because it's been done to death.

They are both, by definition, guitars and are on the surface very similar instruments.

If I was only permitted to pick ONE difference between the two (and I know we could go on forever), sticking only to the technical aspect of playing and not addressing theory- it's that the guitarist challenge is typically speed/coordination, whereas the bass requires strength.

If you play bass and move to guitar, the finger strength on your fretting hand is a huge advantage. If you played guitar and move to bass, it's likely you've been used to playing chords and faster movements that will be an advantage in playing the *average* bass line. (Just my humble opinion from having played guitar before moving to bass)

Of course, if you want to get into all the subtle differences and nuances, this similarities feel like they start to dissipate pretty rapidly.

As it pertains to the original comment, the answer seems kinda obvious. Picking up a bass does not qualify you to teach bass because you played the guitar before, beyond the most basic instruction. Same goes the other way around.

The instruments' role in the band have a completely different mentality in terms of philosophy, and is another story entirely. Right now, I feel like I am playing long enough that I have made the transition from "guitar player" to "bass player" and could give someone a basic education in some of the key elements. But as I have mostly been doing covers, I feel like if I were to write my own material at this point, I'd still be a guitarist playing the bass.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Keith Richards can play bass quite nicely.

And, to be honest, I think noodling and wanking are just that, regardless of the instrument or the player.

[sonic assassin]

im a guitarist first and a bassist second. i taught myself both, and id say im fairly decent at both of them.

it seems people are more easily impressed by a competent bassist than a competent guitarist. flashy guitarist are a dime a dozen, flashy bassists are very few. likely because most of them show restraint. i dont

[hbarcat]

The roles of the bassist and the guitarist in the band are very different and it's common for experienced guitarists to pick up the bass and play it as if it were a bigger guitar and I've personally known guitarists who've done just that. They can wank around on the bass all day and they are clueless as to where the groove is.

On the other hand, I know at least a couple of guitarists who do get it and are fine bass players once they got the feel of the instrument. The guitarist in my classic rock cover band bought a bass three years ago, on a whim, and now he plays in another band and is really quite a talented bass player. He also bought a drum kit about the same time and has learned to play that as well. And he has a fantastic singing voice. Some people are just quick learners at music.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Such as? There is absolutely no reason why someone who is self taught on guitar cannot do the same thing on bass. There are many folks who play guitar and bass very well who have never had a lesson, and there is nothing about learning one instrument that makes it more difficult to learn another.

Way to blow a post out of proportion, buddy.

[the evil]

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

it seems people are more easily impressed by a competent bassist than a competent guitarist.

The majority of people will always be impressed with ANY guitarist over any bass player. the guitar is a much showier instrument. thats like saying (and im going out on a limb for an example only cause its early) Given the choice people will watch WCW over WWF (WWE) yeah they both did the same thing and have the same moves but there is more flash and glam and attraction to teh WWF. Then there is the drummer who is ECW, just kind of irregularly jumps and fumbles around violently but EVERYONE loves it.

Originally Posted by sonic assassin

flashy guitarist are a dime a dozen, flashy bassists are very few. likely because most of them show restraint. i dont

Okay, FLASHY guitarists are only a dime a dozen cause........?

ANYTHING the guitar does can be considered flashy. throw a few effects and a whammy bar on and you have everybody around you drooling at how awesome your instrument sounds. flashy bassists are very few because, well, the bass isnt flashy. and the very few flashy things you can do (which honestly would be treating it like a guitar) most players dont want to learn because they are LAZY. yes, its true. most kids who pick up bass today are just lazy people who want to broodily say they are in a band whilst putting in minimal effort. they blindly play what they are told and follow the guitar, WHICH IS WHERE the any guitarist can play bass comes from.

[unclejane]

Originally Posted by Kevinmach

If I was only permitted to pick ONE difference between the two (and I know we could go on forever), sticking only to the technical aspect of playing and not addressing theory- it's that the guitarist challenge is typically speed/coordination, whereas the bass requires strength.

Don't agree with this. The bass shouldn't require significantly more strength unless it's not setup right . Speed/coordination, nah, you need that on the bass too to at least the same degree as the guitar (if you're a fretless player the requirements on the bass are even higher technically).

My pick for the one single difference between the bass and guitar is that the guitar is played polyphonically typically more than the bass is. Even that breaks down when the bass is played as a solo instrument, i.e. Todd Johnson, Ed Friedland, Jeff Schmidt, Michael Manring and etc. But generally and traditionally, this is the only really significant musical difference.

Most guitarists I've heard who were mediocre bass players were also mediocre guitarists.

OTOH, the guitarist in one of my bands from years ago played bass for Ian Moore for a few years back when he was still in Austin (we knew his manager and some of his relatives. He went to the audition and I didn't - one of my life's great regrets). He was IMO an exceptional bass player. But he was also an exceptional guitarist....

LS

[Hamrhed]

Most guitarists, imo, play bass to augment their recordings. Some use it sparingly and others are more 'notey'...

The best example Ive seen lately of this is Joe Satriani's Surfing with the Alien: I picked this up here from someone who was selling CDs- first time Ive heard the record. Joe plays bass on SWTA, and does a great job! He doesnt do much more than whats needed to get his songs over, and the tracks sound fine!

[Phalex]

Which of these statements is false??

Some guitar players are crappy on bass.

Some bass players are crappy on bass.


Crap is crap. I don't really care what you "main instrument" is.


(It was a trick question. Both statements are true.)

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

Way to blow a post out of proportion, buddy.

Is that a joke, "buddy"?

The "a guitarist just doesn't get the bass" and "guitarists play bass like it's just a bigger, lower guitar" points have been put forth over and over on this and other basscentric forums. It may be true of guitarists who just pick up the bass without learning the role of the instrument, like a clarinet player who picks up a saxophone, but there are plenty of folks who are accomplished at both.

[bassybill]

I know several excellent guitarists who can play pretty much okay on the bass, but none of them is what you'd call really great in that respect.

To use an analogy - if you need medical help, there may be occasions when a doctor of general practice may be able to do the job that you need them to do for you. But there will be other occasions when only the best specialist will be good enough.

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Is that a joke, "buddy"?

The "a guitarist just doesn't get the bass" and "guitarists play bass like it's just a bigger, lower guitar" points have been put forth over and over on this and other basscentric forums. It may be true of guitarists who just pick up the bass without learning the role of the instrument, like a clarinet player who picks up a saxophone, but there are plenty of folks who are accomplished at both.

Maybe it was because it was late, but I read your post completely differently last night. My bad...

[Akshat]

read my sig

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by ggunn

Such as? There is absolutely no reason why someone who is self taught on guitar cannot do the same thing on bass. There are many folks who play guitar and bass very well who have never had a lesson, and there is nothing about learning one instrument that makes it more difficult to learn another.

Such as understanding the physical nature of the bass, and widely accepted bass techniques.

I have nothing against self-taught players. I taught myself electric bass in a couple months, to play in the school jazz band. This was after a few years of cello lessons. But when I eventually took bass lessons, my teacher showed me that my homegrown technique was awkward and probably limiting my musicianship. It would probably have led to injury as well.

Of course we all have different expectations. I would expect a bass teacher to have at least some formal training in an accepted method, and the ability to observe and critique the student's technique. If the student has professional aspirations, then the teacher should also know the ropes about getting into college, or into the gig scene.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

Maybe it was because it was late, but I read your post completely differently last night. My bad...

That's OK. No harm, no foul.

[michael_atw]

I think I'm gonna take it a step further with examples:

Exhibit A - John Paul Jones. Let me quote wikipedia:

John Paul Jones (born John Baldwin on 3 January 1946) is an English musician, composer, arranger, record producer, and multi-instrumentalist musician.

Best known as the bassist, keyboardist, and mandolin player for English rock band Led Zeppelin, Jones has since developed a successful solo career, and is widely respected as both a musician and a producer. A versatile musician, Jones also plays guitar, koto, lap steel guitars, autoharp, ukulele, sitar, cello, continuum and the three over-dubbed recorder parts heard on Led Zeppelin's "Stairway to Heaven".

According to Allmusic, Jones "has left his mark on rock & roll music history as an innovative musician, arranger, and director."


Exhibit B - Cliff Burton: a guitarist who got lost one day and picked up a bass. He even had to distort it into sounding like an electric guitar.


Now...you may see my lean. But really, many people put these two on the same plane as both bassists and instrumentalists. However, JPJ is both a better instrumentalist AND bassist. I don't think guitarists are inherently worse than bassists if they pick up a bass, or vice versa. I just believe there's more to the instrument than effects, sweeping, and fast playing. I only single these two musicians out because they are my polar definitions within the bass realm.