guitarists and time/rhythm

[David Lansen]

I had attempted to learn guitar on and off for a few years before I started to learn bass. I never understood the mechanics of guitar playing. I think my problem with learning guitar was I never had proper teachers. The two "teachers" (both semi-pro) from whom I took "lessons", and the two of my friends who tried to teach me, all had the same approach. They started me on acoustic guitar, taught me a few open chords, and showed me the chord progressions to few songs and how to play along.

I don't think any of them really understand how bands work, and how instruments interact with each other in a band setting. They're all sort of the "solo singer with acoustic guitar accompaniment" type. What they do is finger a chord, strum it like "down, down, up-down, up-down-up" or some variation of it, do it for one bar, and move to the next chord, repeat, etc., for the whole song, and for pretty much every song. And I was just like, "I don't get it." How do I know when to strum, and why? It all seemed totally arbitrary to me.

Well, recently I had a few song ideas, so I grabbed a guitar and was trying a few new chords to see how they sound. I noticed when I was playing, I was imagining bass and drum patterns in my head, and deciding on which beat I should strum, or before or after the beat, or should I swing it, etc. And for the first time in my life, I felt like I could play guitar.

Do you think the way I described those guitarists' playing is common among guitarists (without music training)?

And for the bassist-turned-guitarists, do you find your approach to play guitar more "rhythmic"?

[tZer]

Not sure how to answer other than to say you must walk before you run. Having admitted that you do not yet understand how to play guitar, trying to evaluate people who do play and their style is a bit premature. They play the way they do because it suits their style and needs. There is not rule that dictates such things other than personal ones that work for the individual player.

I know many guitar players and each has their own unique take on strumming, picking, finger-picking, slide and so on. They all have similarities and the all have differences.

When I pick up a guitar I tend to go for a more rhythmic thing. My chord fretting and changing is very clumsy so I tend to find a simple chord and use rhythmic strumming. If I even try to do anything that resembles a lead, I tend to be very ham-handed with my left hand to mute all the slop and again focus on a rhythmic execution of a mostly scalar line to make it sound interesting.

If I am playing melodically I tend to go ultra-simple and try to make an interesting line as opposed to a complicated one that requires more guitar player skill and dexterity.

But again, grasshopper, one must walk first. Learn to walk, er strum and pick, then ask questions about others techniques and why they do what they do. Don't try to second guess before you have the first clue.

[David Lansen]

You're right. Their style and technique is perhaps something I can only learn with experience (or will never learn at all). They play that way because it suits them, as you play what suits you, and in time, I hope to find something that works for me, too. Although I'm starting to think "rhythmic" is more likely my way.

I can't help but be curious though, I wonder if somewhere in the world, some guitarists are saying, "a bassist playing guitar just sounds like a bassist."

[Skel]

It's odd that if I understand correctly, you are able to "play the guitar" if you are trying out new song ideas - or maybe you just "got it" all the sudden and can now "play the guitar" - meaning strumming in a way that makes sense to you.

What those guys were teaching you is very straightforward and sensible for a beginner. If you didn't have a sense for what felt right regarding the strumming, then either these guys were not playing very well, or maybe you had never heard these rhythmic patters before so they seemed foreign to you, but I think you can naturally feel what is right or wrong.

[David Lansen]

Originally Posted by Skel

It's odd that if I understand correctly, you are able to "play the guitar" if you are trying out new song ideas - or maybe you just "got it" all the sudden and can now "play the guitar" - meaning strumming in a way that makes sense to you.

Yeah, I kind of "just got it". I had a bass/drum pattern in my head, and was visualizing some guitar chords over it, and then I grabbed a guitar to "try stuff".

What those guys were teaching you is very straightforward and sensible for a beginner. If you didn't have a sense for what felt right regarding the strumming, then either these guys were not playing very well, or maybe you had never heard these rhythmic patters before so they seemed foreign to you, but I think you can naturally feel what is right or wrong.

Maybe they had stronger senses of melody than rhythm, or maybe there's something else, I really don't know. What they were teaching me certainly wasn't straightforward for me, and still isn't.

They were all solo singer/guitarist types. I noticed if a syllable in the lyrics was sung more accented than others, they generally tended to play downstroke right then. And at the end of a sentence they would up- and down-stroke a lot more often so it was sort of like a "fill". Other than those two things, I couldn't identify any clear pattern.

One of them is my current roommate, and I just asked him about it. He couldn't come up with an explanation. Then I asked him to play with a metronome. When he changed from one chord to another he strummed the new chord on beat 1 dead on, after that it was still quite arbitrary. Strums slightly ahead of beat, slightly behind beat, etc.

Well, he's not that great of a guitarist, but the two teachers I had also played with a similar style. Except I've never asked them to play with a metronome so I can't say.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by David Lansen

...I can't help but be curious though, I wonder if somewhere in the world, some guitarists are saying, "a bassist playing guitar just sounds like a bassist."

That all depends on how you choose to look at people who play instruments. You could also choose to say something like, "He plays guitar like a beginning guitar player" and leave they way he plays each instrument to be evaluated on it's own merit. If you are trying to encapsulate how you feel about a person's guitar playing using bass playing as a model, you open yourself up to many odd and subject interpretations of how you feel that person plays.

However, if you simply take each instrument as it's own entity, then your evaluation of style, technique and how you feel about what he does stays in context.

"He plays guitar with a rhythmic style favoring simple chords and rhythmic pattern over lyrical lines and melodies."

Bass may (or may not) influence how he plays guitar, but he is playing guitar like a guitar player who plays with a rhythmic as opposed to melodic style.

I am a musician who play bass more proficiently than any other instrument. But when I play piano, I play piano, not bass on a piano.

[David Lansen]

Originally Posted by tZer

That all depends on how you choose to look at people who play instruments. You could also choose to say something like, "He plays guitar like a beginning guitar player" and leave they way he plays each instrument to be evaluated on it's own merit. If you are trying to encapsulate how you feel about a person's guitar playing using bass playing as a model, you open yourself up to many odd and subject interpretations of how you feel that person plays.

Oh, I didn't mean it that seriously. It was meant as a reference to how some people here say a guitarist "plays bass like a guitar player," so the fact is some people do choose to look at it that way, or they appear so. The notion that maybe some guitarists out there feel the same way about bassists seems funny in a (my) silly sense.

[tZer]

Gotcha! You never know around here...

I believe that people in general try very hard to wrap simple (simplistic) explanations around things that usually cannot be properly explained or defined simply.

To that, I say carrots.

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by David Lansen

I had attempted to learn guitar on and off for a few years before I started to learn bass. I never understood the mechanics of guitar playing. I think my problem with learning guitar was I never had proper teachers. The two "teachers" (both semi-pro) from whom I took "lessons", and the two of my friends who tried to teach me, all had the same approach. They started me on acoustic guitar, taught me a few open chords, and showed me the chord progressions to few songs and how to play along.

I don't think any of them really understand how bands work, and how instruments interact with each other in a band setting. They're all sort of the "solo singer with acoustic guitar accompaniment" type. What they do is finger a chord, strum it like "down, down, up-down, up-down-up" or some variation of it, do it for one bar, and move to the next chord, repeat, etc., for the whole song, and for pretty much every song. And I was just like, "I don't get it." How do I know when to strum, and why? It all seemed totally arbitrary to me.

Well, recently I had a few song ideas, so I grabbed a guitar and was trying a few new chords to see how they sound. I noticed when I was playing, I was imagining bass and drum patterns in my head, and deciding on which beat I should strum, or before or after the beat, or should I swing it, etc. And for the first time in my life, I felt like I could play guitar.

Do you think the way I described those guitarists' playing is common among guitarists (without music training)?

And for the bassist-turned-guitarists, do you find your approach to play guitar more "rhythmic"?

If I'm understanding what you're saying, I think it's the opposite of your theory. I think you may have been trying to put too much into it when you initially were trying to learn. When you gained the experience of playing, you were able to use that experience and confidence to translate to guitar.

Knowing when to strum, how to keep rhythm, why you're strumming... it's very difficult to teach someone who doesn't have an idea of what they're doing. Experience allows you to develop a feel for it, rather than always arbitrarily assigning when to strike the strings, or mandatory strumming patterns.

While I don't know the particulars about the guys who were initially trying to teach you, but I think it's unfair to say they didn't understand their instruments because you didn't understand what they were trying to impart to you.
As far as a guitar player doing the "singer songwriter" thing- you have no one to follow, and no one to follow you. In the "rock band" context, everyone follows/works off the time/rhythm of the drums (unless you're the Rolling Stones- then everyone works off the rhythm guitar). I don't think music training is a necessity to fluid playing, on either bass or guitar, however experience is invaluable.

[David Lansen]

Originally Posted by tZer

To that, I say carrots.

Hahaha, well said!

[David Lansen]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

If I'm understanding what you're saying, I think it's the opposite of your theory. I think you may have been trying to put too much into it when you initially were trying to learn. When you gained the experience of playing, you were able to use that experience and confidence to translate to guitar.

Knowing when to strum, how to keep rhythm, why you're strumming... it's very difficult to teach someone who doesn't have an idea of what they're doing. Experience allows you to develop a feel for it, rather than always arbitrarily assigning when to strike the strings, or mandatory strumming patterns.

Interesting. I never thought about it that way, but it's certainly possible. On the other hand, when I decided to teach myself bass, I opted for the different approach - knowing why - because it's how I learn everything else (math, science, engineering stuff) and it's worked for me.

While I don't know the particulars about the guys who were initially trying to teach you, but I think it's unfair to say they didn't understand their instruments because you didn't understand what they were trying to impart to you.
As far as a guitar player doing the "singer songwriter" thing- you have no one to follow, and no one to follow you. In the "rock band" context, everyone follows/works off the time/rhythm of the drums (unless you're the Rolling Stones- then everyone works off the rhythm guitar). I don't think music training is a necessity to fluid playing, on either bass or guitar, however experience is invaluable.

I didn't say they didn't understand their instruments, what I said was they didn't understand how to play in a band (which, again, may or may not be true, it's me speculating). But yes, experience is invaluable, and I still have a long way to go.