HELP! Clarity Please! What Exactly is "Self-Indulgent" in Terms of Music?

[Jeremy Crockett]

I've heard & read the phrase bandied about in regards to compositions and I can't quite get a handle on what specifically makes certain albums/songs self-indulgent.

I've heard that you're supposed to write "for yourself" and if that is the case, then isn't all music self-indulgent?

[bongomania]

IMO it crosses the line into "self-indulgent" when an artist makes bad aesthetic/lyrical decisions while playing and writing only for their own amusement, without regard for the audience and without a sense of context. Symptoms include wanky solos, cliche'd lyrics, ironic "winking" look-this-is-funny attitude, excessively "purple" or overblown drama, intellectual references, syrupy poor-me stories, etc.

[Atoz]

It's "self-indulgent" when it becomes the musical/lyrical equivalent of masturbation.

[lemur821]

If it's above the 12th fret and/or contains something shorter than an eighth note. Slapping puts you on thin ice.

EDIT: Also if it's played on the guitar.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by bongomania

IMO it crosses the line into "self-indulgent" when an artist makes bad aesthetic/lyrical decisions while playing and writing only for their own amusement, without regard for the audience and without a sense of context. Symptoms include wanky solos, cliche'd lyrics, ironic "winking" look-this-is-funny attitude, excessively "purple" or overblown drama, intellectual references, syrupy poor-me stories, etc.

What's funny is that you get all those things exactly in something like Queen's "Bohemian Rhapsody" - perhaps only Freddie Mercury every understood what it was about - no regard to an audience who weren't familiar with Zoroastrianism - excessive overblown drama, too long for a pop single, wanky guitar solos,"winking" mock classical/intellectual references...etc etc

Yet people love it!!

[All_¥our_Bass]

I never thought a musician should write a tune based on if other people will like it or not.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

...Yet people love it!!

You raise a good point, Bruce. I think they succeeded (as did Judas Priest and some other "over-the-top" acts) because they took that self-indulgent wankery and RAN with it, taking it to new heights. OTOH people love Morrissey too, and emo bands, and all kinds of self-indulgent crud... popularity was never a measure of good taste.

[BassGod]

If I had to pick one band that defines "self-indulgent" in every way, that band would be Yes.

While I find Close To The Edge to be an incredible album, for example, it is extremely self-indulgent.

Graeme

[Benjamin Strange]

Self-indulgent is just another term, which in reference to art, is meaningless. Talking about music is like dancing about architecture - it may get the point across, but nobody gets it.

[BassGod]

Originally Posted by Benjamin Strange

Self-indulgent is just another term, which in reference to art, is meaningless. Talking about music is like dancing about architecture - it may get the point across, but nobody gets it.

Is that a Zappa quote? I recognize it (if it's yours, my apologies).

Graeme

[Benjamin Strange]

Originally Posted by BassGod

Is that a Zappa quote? I recognize it (if it's yours, my apologies).

Graeme

I'm not sure who said it originally. I'd like to think I'm that clever - so I do.

[KeithBMI]

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

I never thought a musician should write a tune based on if other people will like it or not.

Can you guys discuss this? I had a "fight" with my band about the music we're making. Should it be "Self-Indulgent" jams because they like playing them... or should it be something that appeals to actual teenagers?

[BassGod]

Originally Posted by KeithBMI

Can you guys discuss this? I had a "fight" with my band about the music we're making. Should it be "Self-Indulgent" jams because they like playing them... or should it be something that appeals to actual teenagers?

I just formed a new band. I was in another one that did regular gigs for a few years.

I got sick of the on stage routine: [play song one] "okay, that was our first song, here's our next one" [play song two] "that song was...]

So now that I'm in a new band, we're just gonna jam. We'll have a few key riffs pre-written, then go on stage and jam for as long as it takes to get our musical point across. Could be fifteen minutes, could be three.

If the audience doesn't like it, so be it. We play music for ourselves, and if other people can dig it, that's fine by us. But I'm not going to write music to please a target demographic.

Graeme

EDIT: I'd just like to add that in my old band, we constantly fought about the same thing your band is fighting about.

[All_¥our_Bass]

Originally Posted by BassGod

I just formed a new band. I was in another one that did regular gigs for a few years.

I got sick of the on stage routine: [play song one] "okay, that was our first song, here's our next one" [play song two] "that song was...]

So now that I'm in a new band, we're just gonna jam. We'll have a few key riffs pre-written, then go on stage and jam for as long as it takes to get our musical point across. Could be fifteen minutes, could be three.

If the audience doesn't like it, so be it. We play music for ourselves, and if other people can dig it, that's fine by us. But I'm not going to write music to please a target demographic.

Graeme

EDIT: I'd just like to add that in my old band, we constantly fought about the same thing your band is fighting about.

I agree with this 100%. I water down my tunes for no one.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by KeithBMI

Can you guys discuss this? I had a "fight" with my band about the music we're making. Should it be "Self-Indulgent" jams because they like playing them... or should it be something that appeals to actual teenagers?

It all depends on your goals. Discuss your goals and you should be closer to an answer. Also take into consideration what the contribution would be to the songs.

My contention is that, I'm never going to play Paul Jackson lines better than Paul Jackson, so, I decided that I don't have to be better than him -- just different. My goal to be different, yet still hint at The Headhunters style is getting me closer to finding my compositional voice.

Also, I'm a huge fan of world music -- So, why not combine jazz/funk/fusion rythems with melodies from South Africa and Argentina.

That was my thought process in finding my voice. YMMV. Is it self-indulgent? I don't know. I'm not too concerned. I have a focus and an idea to run with, so I'm making the most out of it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by All_¥our_Bass

I water down my tunes for no one.

How self-indulgent!!

[Baryonyx]

Originally Posted by BassGod

Is that a Zappa quote? I recognize it (if it's yours, my apologies).

Graeme

It was actually Thelonius Monk who said that. Though when I dance, I often reference architecture as I throw shapes.

[velvetkevorkian]

I've also heard it credited to Elvis Costello and Brian Eno....

[Baryonyx]

Originally Posted by velvetkevorkian

I've also heard it credited to Elvis Costello and Brian Eno....

Hmm, seems it's source is unverifiable. Though if it's Costello's or Eno's music in question, we'd be better off not listening*

*scoff

[Against Will]

I believe self-indulgence has more to do with when an artist becomes so convinced of their own greatness that they believe anything they produce is gold. Thus you get a lot of things as described above: wanky solos, cheese-ball/***? lyrics, pinheaded song writing, etc. Suddenly music is no longer about expression as it is about self-aggrandizing.

The other side of the term though, is it's often used by purists or close-minded types as an authoritative way of saying "they didn't produce the album I wanted them too." Oftentimes it gets bandied out when an artist chooses to trying something new, or expand on their idea of music and what it can/can't & should/shouldn't be.


Of course, it's up to you to determine which case it is at any given time. Whether the accusation is warranted or not depends on your own taste. There isn't really a right answer, much as I, and others, wish to think otherwise.