Help understand standard notation with treble and bass clef

[BigBlueF6]

I am a 48 year old rookie bass player (mid-life crisis I guess ) who is learning how to read standard notation sheet music. Some sheet music I see, almost exclusively classic rock, is clearly identified as bass lines and the notes on the bass clef are within the range of a 4 string bass.

On the other hand, other sheet music I find is not as clear to me what the purpose is for because of the way it is displayed. On each page, there is a line of music on a treble clef and what appears to be a grand staff (both treble and bass clef) for a piano. However, many times the notes on the bass clef are outside the range of the 4 string bass guitar, many of the songs the music is for do not have key boards in them, and many times the notes on the bass clef do not match the bass music in the songs.

The link below points to an example of what I am talking about.

http://www.robintrower.com/Song%20Books/BOS/BoS-Too_Rolling_Stoned1.html

Can somebody please help me understand what the purpose of music displayed like this is for? From what I have looked at, this type of display is very common.

Thanks.

[Lo-E]

Bass music is often written an octave higher than it really sounds in order to make it easier to read. Guitar music is written that way too so it doesn't fall between the two staves. Rather than make you read a zillion ledger lines, it's just written an octave up assuming the bassist will transpose it while reading.

If music is written on a full staff (that extra G clef up top is for the melody), then the bass might be written in it's actual range to accomodate other musicians who are reading the entire arrangement. Confusing at first, but not too scary.

[BigBlueF6]

You just made my day!! I thought that type of music was not going to help me, but it looks like my possible choices of sheet music just went up drastically. Many thanks!!!

[Lo-E]

Glad to help!

[wazzel]

That looks like a piano and vocal arrangement for that song. I would bet if you had the full score or music for each instrument the correct bass parts would be there. Music is often "re"arranged for particular groupings of instrument. It gets cut and pieced together to sound correct for limited or extended groups of instruments.

As far as the bass being transposed up an octave. I am not sure about that one. I have not seen that discussed in any books I have on hand. I have not seen written bass music reset after the second E. I have seen music telling you to play up an octave so you do not have to count ledger lines. I could be that standard notation of bass music is an octave higher then being played, but it is treated as play as read.

[wazzel]

I stand corrected. They are noted one octave higher then they sound. Transposing is not requires since the one octave higher is carried out through all the range of the instrument.

Neat fact.

[BigBlueF6]

This is starting to make sense. It sounds like when the grand staff is used to display the notes, they are shown in there "true" position in relation to the other notes on the staff using ledger lines for the lower notes. But when only the bass clef is used by itself (not part of the grand staff) to display the notes, the notes can be displayed one octave higher to make it easier to read.

This falls into place with another thing I am seeing. That is sometimes I see two sets of notes on the bass clef of the grand staff with one set being one octave higher. This sounds like it is a "convenience" kind of thing to help make it a bit more readable.

Good stuff guys. Thanks for helping out.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by BigBlueF6

This is starting to make sense. It sounds like when the grand staff is used to display the notes, they are shown in there "true" position in relation to the other notes on the staff using ledger lines for the lower notes. But when only the bass clef is used by itself (not part of the grand staff) to display the notes, the notes can be displayed one octave higher to make it easier to read.

This falls into place with another thing I am seeing. That is sometimes I see two sets of notes on the bass clef of the grand staff with one set being one octave higher. This sounds like it is a "convenience" kind of thing to help make it a bit more readable.

Good stuff guys. Thanks for helping out.

the left hand piano parts seldom resemble an actual bass line....if you go to the tab forum and ask i'm sure some of the guys will be able to send you some lines to work on...

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

the left hand piano parts seldom resemble an actual bass line....if you go to the tab forum and ask i'm sure some of the guys will be able to send you some lines to work on...

This. In a pop piano part, you don't usually see a really active bass in the grand scheme of things.

[fourstringburn]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

if you go to the tab forum and ask I'm sure some of the guys will be able to send you some lines to work on...

Great advice to someone wanting to properly learn music. Tab is not music, it is a system used by people too lazy or competent to learn notation. I only know of it's existence in rock music on fretted instruments.

As for your question on this music score ( which notation is an written equivelant of a foreign language by an Tibeten monk for tab guys ) Yes, this appears to be a piano score. The intro is a line written in octaves to be played with 2 hands for a more legato sound that's why you see the R.H. symbol in the opening measure. That's a sure giveaway on this one. also you see the guitar chords above the staff along with the vocal/melody line in the upper G clef.
The lower ledger lines in the bass clef in the following measures are in fact where the bass guitar range really is, however in bass music, it is usually notated a octave higher for easier reading and scoring. I disagree why bass music is written like this. The problem is by doing that, is a player doesn't learn to read the lower ledger lines and will have shortcomings one day as I did when I was handed a chart with the bass clef in ledger lines.

Your also wondering why you see some bass lines written in music scores like this that don't seem to be in the original song. That's because a lot of the music like this falls under the "Fake Book " category which are interpretations of the song. Some are close, others are in different keys or abridged versions for easy playing.
This is unfortunately the case with most rock music scores, especially with piano music.

As you are aware now, you can see the notation range of the bass guitar in written music. So you may have to adapt when interpreting music written out for another instrument like piano. It is possible to adapt nearly any music score to any instrument of pitch because music is a generic alphabet, 12 notes right? Your on the right track to learning though!

For now, I would recommend sticking only with bass guitar music transcriptions, for the ones I have seen seem to be fairly accurate and of course there written only in the bass clef for the bass guitar. Sheetmusic.com has a decent selection of bass guitar music books, Check them out!

.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by fourstringburn

Great advice to someone wanting to properly learn music. Tab is not music, it is a system used by people too lazy or competent to learn notation. I only know of it's existence in rock music on fretted instruments.

As for your question on this music score ( which notation is an written equivelant of a foreign language by an Tibeten monk for tab guys ) Yes, this appears to be a piano score. The intro is a line written in octaves to be played with 2 hands for a more legato sound that's why you see the R.H. symbol in the opening measure. That's a sure giveaway on this one. also you see the guitar chords above the staff along with the vocal/melody line in the upper G clef.
The lower ledger lines in the bass clef in the following measures are in fact where the bass guitar range really is, however in bass music, it is usually notated a octave higher for easier reading and scoring. I disagree why bass music is written like this. The problem is by doing that, is a player doesn't learn to read the lower ledger lines and will have shortcomings one day as I did when I was handed a chart with the bass clef in ledger lines.

Your also wondering why you see some bass lines written in music scores like this that don't seem to be in the original song. That's because a lot of the music like this falls under the "Fake Book " category which are interpretations of the song. Some are close, others are in different keys or abridged versions for easy playing.
This is unfortunately the case with most rock music scores, especially with piano music.

As you are aware now, you can see the notation range of the bass guitar in written music. So you may have to adapt when interpreting music written out for another instrument like piano. It is possible to adapt nearly any music score to any instrument of pitch because music is a generic alphabet, 12 notes right? Your on the right track to learning though!

For now, I would recommend sticking only with bass guitar music transcriptions, for the ones I have seen seem to be fairly accurate and of course there written only in the bass clef for the bass guitar. Sheetmusic.com has a decent selection of bass guitar music books, Check them out!

.

dude....plenty of notation changes hands in the tab forum.....in lieu of a dots forum,the tab forum is where its at

[fourstringburn]

Originally Posted by Jim Campbell

dude....plenty of notation changes hands in the tab forum.....in lieu of a dots forum,the tab forum is where its at

DUDE? TAB? DOTS?

[bamba22]

You need to find dome good guidence that will show you, step by step how to read notes

[Rudreax]

Originally Posted by bamba22

You need to find dome good guidence that will show you, step by step how to read notes

I disagree. If you apply yourself well you can learn to read decently in a week, tops. It's really a simple thing to do; think of it as like learning the notes of the fingerboard, and then applying it.

[BigBlueF6]

Even though I am a rookie, I agree with learning standard notation rather then, or at least in addition too, tabs. I started off using tabs and found that it is amazing how different people can listen to the same music and interpret the notes totally different. It was driving me nuts. And even though I knew the songs I was trying to play, (“knew” not from playing an instrument, but from listening to them bounce around in my head for the last 40 years ) I found it difficult to get the timing right using tabs, assuming I picked an accurate version of the tab, if an accurate version even existed. Again, rookie here.

Then my daughter who plays cello showed me some of her music which also uses the bass clef. I immediately realized the benefits of using standard notation over tabs. This started my search for standard notation for the bass and teaching myself, with my daughter’s help, how to read music. It was slow at first but I am getting there and it is well worth the effort.

I found a copy of The Best Of Steely Dan, ISBN 0-7935-2531-4. It shows lines of music for every instrument and every vocal in the songs. After seeing this, I now understand what is meant by some music being abridged.

As for guidance, I tried a local bass “teacher”. All he did was show me some main riffs from popular songs. I asked him some questions about standard notation which he just glazed over. I really don’t think he could read a note of music. And when I found some standard notation of some of the songs he showed me, some of what he showed me was wrong. I am talking to another potential bass teacher, but I am asking a lot of questions before I sign up with him to avoid the problems I had with the last teacher. I told him I want to learn how to play the bass and not just mimic some hack moving his fingers and banging on strings.

I am actually learning a lot by going to watch my daughter at her cello lessons. The teacher has a masters degree in the cello. He is trained strictly in classical music (not classic rock unfortunately ). He has no idea were “more cowbell” came from. But he lets me sneak in a few questions at the end of each lesson. However, he was not familiar with the format of music that this thread is about because he never deals with anything other then classical music and does not deal with “fake book” type abridged music. He understood the notes and the grand staff. He just could not tell me why the music would be present that way.

I appreciate all the different views on this subject. It certainly give me something to keep in mind as I move forward. That’s the neat thing about being a rookie. Every time I touch a bass, ever time I read music, every time I talk to people like you guys, I learn something.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by fourstringburn

DUDE? TAB? DOTS?

ok i'll play

dude=male
dots=standard notation
tab=the other notation
tab forum=place where charts in tab and/or notation are requested and supplied,despite the misleading nomenclature
noob=.....

if my trying to help someone find material to help him play better does not sit well with you say so and i'll jiggle that ignore button and save myself the aggravation

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by BigBlueF6

Even though I am a rookie, I agree with learning standard notation rather then, or at least in addition too, tabs. I started off using tabs and found that it is amazing how different people can listen to the same music and interpret the notes totally different. It was driving me nuts. And even though I knew the songs I was trying to play, (“knew” not from playing an instrument, but from listening to them bounce around in my head for the last 40 years ) I found it difficult to get the timing right using tabs, assuming I picked an accurate version of the tab, if an accurate version even existed. Again, rookie here.

Then my daughter who plays cello showed me some of her music which also uses the bass clef. I immediately realized the benefits of using standard notation over tabs. This started my search for standard notation for the bass and teaching myself, with my daughter’s help, how to read music. It was slow at first but I am getting there and it is well worth the effort.

I found a copy of The Best Of Steely Dan, ISBN 0-7935-2531-4. It shows lines of music for every instrument and every vocal in the songs. After seeing this, I now understand what is meant by some music being abridged.

As for guidance, I tried a local bass “teacher”. All he did was show me some main riffs from popular songs. I asked him some questions about standard notation which he just glazed over. I really don’t think he could read a note of music. And when I found some standard notation of some of the songs he showed me, some of what he showed me was wrong. I am talking to another potential bass teacher, but I am asking a lot of questions before I sign up with him to avoid the problems I had with the last teacher. I told him I want to learn how to play the bass and not just mimic some hack moving his fingers and banging on strings.

I am actually learning a lot by going to watch my daughter at her cello lessons. The teacher has a masters degree in the cello. He is trained strictly in classical music (not classic rock unfortunately ). He has no idea were “more cowbell” came from. But he lets me sneak in a few questions at the end of each lesson. However, he was not familiar with the format of music that this thread is about because he never deals with anything other then classical music and does not deal with “fake book” type abridged music. He understood the notes and the grand staff. He just could not tell me why the music would be present that way.

I appreciate all the different views on this subject. It certainly give me something to keep in mind as I move forward. That’s the neat thing about being a rookie. Every time I touch a bass, ever time I read music, every time I talk to people like you guys, I learn something.

if you pm me an email i can send you a few charts......if you can get your hands on the jamerson book it's a great resource

[Rudreax]

If you're dead serious about learning to read (which you clearly are), just look up sheet music on google or find some books in a music store and just start reading. This is something anyone can do on their own time, so if you only want a teacher for the sole purpose of learning to read I'd suggest you just do it on your own and save money.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by Rudreax

If you're dead serious about learning to read (which you clearly are), just look up sheet music on google or find some books in a music store and just start reading. This is something anyone can do on their own time, so if you only want a teacher for the sole purpose of learning to read I'd suggest you just do it on your own and save money.

tru dat.....just remember to count

[Stumbo]

You might want to check out the links in my sig. for some great TB info that may help you along your bass learning journey>