Hey nerds! 3 high-quality cables, all sound different--why?

[bongomania]

We've all seen how the "audiophile cable" threads go, so first, some ground rules:
--Keep it civil.
--Explain yourself, don't just blurt out a terse assertion.
--Nerd science welcome!!! No insulting or dismissing of science in this thread.
--Descriptions of tone and "what I/you heard" are understood to be only subjective.
Thanks. Now, on to the thread:

Here's an oddity that I've been stumped by recently. I have three different kinds of high quality (not expensive audiophile, but "semi-gourmet") instrument cables, and they all sound completely different. One of Elixir's new $70 extra-low-capacitance cables they sent around for review; a Fender "Premium Gold"; and several cables made of bulk Canare with G&H nickel plugs.

For a long time I've been in the camp that asserts that any non-faulty conductor, of similarly-conductive metals, will work the same as any other--and that claims of "better tone" by high-end cable companies are a crock. I use mostly the Canare/G&H cables because they are a solid, professional, and effective conductor with no BS, either from marketing or functionality standpoints.

Then I received one of those free tester cables from Elixir, and was frankly shocked by how different it sounds from my Canares. Sure the capacitance of a cable or plug can be manipulated to emphasize or de-emphasize certain frequencies, but considering I thought the Canares were pretty low-capacitance already, I did not expect this much dramatic difference. The Elixir passes an insane amount of high-frequency content by comparison, including extra hiss at the upper reaches of my hearing.

In the thread about the Elixirs, one guy posted that the Elixir seemed to lose some highs compared to his favorite cable, a Fender Pro Gold. So I had to buy one of those, to hear for myself. Well, on the one hand I totally disagree about the relative high frequency content, but OTOH the Fender sounds completely different, in its own way. Frankly it sounds really weird! Going back and forth between the Elixir and the Canare, it sounds like the same signal but with more or less highs. Going back and forth between either of those and the Fender, with the Fender it sounds like the entire spectrum of the signal is EQ'd in some exaggerated way. Hard to describe exactly.

Now, granting that all this listening is subjective and prone to placebo effect and other tricks of the mind, what am I actually hearing? Regardless of however the sounds may be interpreted and described, they are consistent as I go back and forth between the cables. IOW from one day to the next, I hear the same general type of results, to the same degree.

It seems impossible that what I'm hearing would result from just a difference in overall capacitance, since all three are supposedly so low in capacitance, and it's not like my hearing is so perfect that I could discern tiny variances like that. It also seems like a more complex filter would need to be made of obvious discreet components, not just wrapping the wire one way or another. Besides, pragmatists have long argued that the whole wire-wrapping geometry thing is a crock. But again I assert that I hear a dramatic, obvious difference between all three cable types.

So what's your take on this? Is it really possible to create a complex filter just by manipulating the wires and the specific conductive metals used in the cable or plugs? What is really going on here?

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by bongomania

So what's your take on this? Is it really possible to create a complex filter just by manipulating the wires and the specific conductive metals used in the cable or plugs? What is really going on here?

My take? Hook them up to a scope and get back to me. If you're right, the difference should be measurable. High impedance signals like those from a bass guitar (or in hifi) are subject to all kinds of crazy stuff.

[FunkMetalBass]

Post an SPL chart or just a screenshot of a frequency analyzer when playing an open A, keep everything but the cable constant.

Rule #3 applies to you as well, good sir.

[bongomania]

Do you imagine that I have insulted or dismissed science?



FWIW, I do not have a hardware spectrum analyzer, and I use a Mac, and all of the analyzer software I've found is PC only. Let me know if you know of a good quality analyzer for Mac.

[MooseLumps]

Subbed, my friend.
Also, if you need to scope something, user fDeck (or variation thereon) has a funky little piece of software that may work, and to the best of my knowledge it's free.

I'm in the same boat as bongo. I read that article that said that in a double-blind experiment, audiophiles couldn't tell cable from coat hanger. While this is anecdotal, it's still pretty convincing. I try to use good cable, and even own and use a Monster, but stacking that Monster against any of my other, cheaper cables has never led me to believe that there is a difference in tone. You would figure that if you run a Monster from your instrument to your amp and then a $.99 cable to your cab, you could loose whatever goodness you achieved (note, not gained) using the more expensive cable.

Please, Nerds, post frequently and with abandon.

That is all

[varunkapahi]

i have never tried any of the really expensive or audiophile cables. but i know out of the ones i have tried, they do tend to sound different! you dont need to record the clips to compare for yourself its very apparent to the ears.
even if it is figured out why it happens, i guess we'd never know what is the "true" sound ever so to me it sounds like a quest of how blue that blue looks to you, him and her! its all greek to me anyway. but i have wondered about how "would it really make a difference" part

[vene-nemesis]

Originally Posted by varunkapahi

i guess we'd never know what is the "true" sound ever so to me it sounds like a quest of how blue that blue looks to you, him and her!

In both cases you can analize the spectrum of frequencies to tell facts over apreciation:

For color you can tell how much lumens and in wich freq a color reflects some kind of light.

For sound you use a scope and measure the sound waves and contrast them.

[Pilgrim]

Sub'd, primarily because IMO Bongolation is neither a nut nor someone who's going to be led astray by his imagination. I'm interested in learning more about what he discovers.

Looking forward to actual frequency analysis. This is a great opportunity to do that test!

[David1234]

I'm playing a Fender Platinum Pro cable now. I heard the difference when I A-B'd it against a few other cables I own, and I struggle to describe it other than "better". It seems not to be a simple EQ thing, although the mid range seems most improved.

Hence, I'm subscribing!

[rditmars]

Originally Posted by vene-nemesis

For color you can tell how much lumens and in wich freq a color reflects some kind of light

What does that mean to someone who is colorblind?

How do any such measurements relate to human sensory perception?

[Queg]

Sub'd, but only to sit back and watch the sparks fly.

[vene-nemesis]

Originally Posted by rditmars

What does that mean to someone who is colorblind?

How do any such measurements relate to human sensory perception?

You measure its properties and thats it. There is people whos color perception is much more precise than the average, so if you can stimate what the mean freq value of a certain color is, by means of multiple observators, you can tell that said mean value is the most precise. For example with blue there is a point ion the freq spectrum where it becomes magenta/violet and another where it becomes turqoise/green the point in the middle is blue.

You are going to be able to tell my arguments are invalid, specially from a philosofical stand point. I must admit however that it will never be the absolute "blue" but its well damn near it.

what does that mean to someone whos colorblind? the same that it means to any of us that a dog wistle produces sound too treeble for us to hear.

How does it relate to human sensory perception? Depends on the individual interest over it.

[Frettage]

Originally Posted by bongomania

FWIW, I do not have a hardware spectrum analyzer, and I use a Mac, and all of the analyzer software I've found is PC only. Let me know if you know of a good quality analyzer for Mac.

Here's a list of a variety of sound analyzers for the Mac:
http://www.macmusic.org/software/cat...ng/en/id/7033/

[SwamiRob]

Just posting cos I can't be bothered with subscriptions, sounds very interesting, especially the whole frequency thing since it always seems like you get a muddier or more nasal signal from a lower quality cable, something I always though was just due to a bad connection but may well be to do with other factors.

[Surly]

Maybe one could be a bit louder, thus sounding different in a room. Just a guess. I have a few Monster cables because of their build quality, but can't tell the difference in sound between any cables.

[DrewinHouston]

Perception is a funny thing; you may think you can hear a difference, but when you test it, it might go away. I suggest you conduct your own blind (or better, double-blind) test with the three cables, and see if your perception of the differences is repeatable. That's a cheap and easy way to get started. Do enough tries to reduce the element of chance, like a half-dozen each. If you can reliably identify one or more of the cables, then some testing (e.g. impedance, frequency spectrum analysis, levels) could tell you why one sounds different from the other.

[bongomania]

Oh believe me, I am well aware of the tricks our minds play on us. I wouldn't even be asking the question if it weren't for the huge, obvious difference I'm hearing consistently. Not like "oh this one is better, with richer tone and crisper articulation" --things that we can easily talk ourselves into-- but literally a difference equivalent to turning a treble EQ knob up 15 dB, or applying some other significant amount of EQ.

I've d/l'ed a couple of spectrum analyzers from the site linked a couple of posts up; I need to get a new interface, but I'll do that pronto and then post the results of these cables tested with both pink noise and a passive BG signal.

[Bootzilla]

If you play a passive bass the capacitance of the cable will impact the resonant frequency. This can account for the difference in treble frequencies. This link has a lot of useful info. http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/

[higgi]

I can hear the difference between a 2 foot instrument cable and a 15 foot cable with a passive bass but not with an active. The shorter cable had more high freq content. I liked the the 15 foot cable better by the way, I don't need the clank and hiss.

[MakiSupaStar]

I have certain cables that buzz in certain rooms but don't buzz in other rooms. But other than that I also have cables that are generally quieter than other cables. Some are by the same exact company.